They are hiring roofers

Chuck, I meant doing work for other contractors. I always did the work I sold.

Lefty: "Chuck you are doing what I have posted. 1 man or 2 guys partnering up can make a good living. I built a reputation that took me above the going rate, but could still do the going rate and make good money. Subing and building a repair business is the way to go. Eventually if you want you just do repairs. This is all doable."

Did you mean subbing from other roofing companies or selling roofs and sub-contracting them out?

Gerry, "THe" guy you are referring to, at least in my humble opinion, had a mind so fast, so sharp, so clever, and so impromptu original that to constrain it within the confines of the well-rehearsed program Kaller had developed would have been tantamount to suicide. Those were two forces of nature clashing.

Kaller had some good ones. "I can take the criticism; my back is so full of arrows I look like a pincushion."

"The first thing is to get the right people on the bus. The second is to get them all in the right seats."

"If you want to keep them, you have to have something to offer the meat-eaters."

GKRFG, 10% of the people buy because of price, 90% of the people buy because of value {precieved or real}.

Yet 90% of contractors sell on price trying to get 10% of the customers. !0% of the contractors sell on value to the 90%. They have the pick of work because they go after the biggest pool of customers.

The 90% will buy on price if it looks like that is the only thing to make a decision on.

That was hard to digest. But once I took the risk and tried it, things changed.

Andy, I looked at Bob's website to see what I could learn. The thing that I will always remember is that he had a phone number for every municipality that he worked in. That impressed me. That was a big phone bill to do that. I could not imagine paying a bill like that.

I am doing that with websites instead of phone numbers. I have a gutter cleaning site for most towns around me. Same with siding repairs,roof repairs, hail damage, and insulation. So I have 2 sites that come up on the first page of google for the town. As soon as a site gives me a lead and a sale I buy a couple more.

Just went and priced out an insulation job from one of these sites. They will let me know about the insulation job $2100. I have a $300 siding repair to do even if they do not go with the insulation. Pays for the domain name, hosting and gets my sign in the neighborhood. I will also make a couple of dollars on the repair.

Lefty, I remember those posts from Kaller and Bob . . . a lot of wisdom there . . .

Years ago our local distributor partnered with a shingle manufacturer to bring Richard Kaller in for a day long seminar on selling. I can't think of very many of us in that meeting who were receptive to the idea that selling at the "going rate" was selling at the "going broke rate". We just could not wrap our minds around the numbers he was getting for his services.

Time, experience and necessity have changed my thinking . . .

My dad has always said that the most efficient business model for our trade is the owner and a helper. At age 60, I don't see subbing in my future . . . but the repair thing is working out pretty sweet. Getting very particular about the type of project and who we work for. Hitting the sweet spot.

MikeH, Thank You, The reason I made the posts in this thread were for the lurkers. There had to be a couple of guys who where reading intently.

I remember when Richard Kaller was posting here and everyone was attacking him. I read everyone of his posts, gleaning alot of good information from them. I wished I had the money and the courage to join his network at the time. The time and struggles I could have saved. Bob I think he was from Chicago, he was a member of Kallar's mentoring program. He never posted much about how he done things. I wished he would have, he took alot of knowledge with him. I remember thinking that took courage to keep posting, under all the criticism.

Chuck you are doing what I have posted. 1 man or 2 guys partnering up can make a good living. I built a reputation that took me above the going rate, but could still do the going rate and make good money. Subing and building a repair business is the way to go. Eventually if you want you just do repairs. This is all doable.

My business needs more money to operate then the going rate. I have never understood not having work. The only time I did not work was when I did not want to work. I actually grow the most when others are complaining about not having work.

And when that guy who's sub-contracting for $45 sq. tears off around the chimney and discovers that it needs new flashing but the sales person didn't note that on the paperwork and/or the insurance company refused to pay for it combined with the fact they will not pay him anything extra to do it. ( It's included in the per sq. price the ad says ) almost every single time he will "choose" to not reflash it and the chimney will be a problem down the road for the homeowner. Not to mention the fact he has to "complete the job in one day" and it will take half the day to flash the chimney for free.

Mike H.,"Whether to do it right or wrong still comes down to a personal choice of the person doing the job." as usual, dead on the money . . . I've long ago moved past any concern about quoting at "market" rates. There have been times when circumstances have influenced the pricing on my services. The challenge is that no matter the price quoted, I am compelled to use best practices and good materials, sometimes to financial detriment.

It is a young man's game, for sure. The "eggs" of this world are a rare breed.

Lurkers here are lucky to have Lefty and Egg, lest they think the task before them may be hopeless.

I love what egg said about gold hatchets and titanium ladders, or visa versa, maybe it was hatchet ladders and gold titanium???, cuz that's the very reason I fight those contractor licensing laws. The gooberment should not be able to stifle initiative.

I think it was Wuck, that disagreed with me about quality being a personal decision in the residential market. BULL!!! The prices may encourage it, but it doesn't dictate poor quality. Whether to do it right or wrong still comes down to a personal choice of the person doing the job.

Money, and the love of it, is at the root of poor quality, but it is NOT the cause. I could choose to do crappy work every day, but I want to step down from this rat race, I want it to be something my children can be proud of and something that's worth paying me for. Otherwise they'd be stupid to do anything other than hit the roof with a truck and a ladder.

Lefty: "Like Egg said "this industry provides a guy with nothing, a way to build a good business and live a good life".

If not for all the years of working on roofs I wouldn't have the experience, knowledge and skill I have today and if I hadn't owned a roofing business of my own, I wouldn't know how to bid properly, sell at a high closing rate and how to avoid problems.

I got my start working for my father. He was a sub-contractor. Not a Roofing Company owner.

twill59 Said: If I got a shingle roofing job to do in LeHigh Valley, PA, and I wanted to sub it, how much would Holencik charge per square to the job?

No travel. Minimum specs. One layer, off/on a few vents, 2 valleys. Metal edging, pipe boots. No flashing. No dormers, dumpster or materials.

Ill go 1st: Id be at $100 minimum. If someone had dozens of these, of course it would be a little less.

If it was just me I could do it for $100 a square everything supplied. Holencik Roofing could not do it for that.

I am unclear about what you mean with the "dumster or materials". Do you mean I would supply them or the general supplies them?

I work in the same marketplace with the all of the same types of contractors you are complaining about. I have enough work to never lay anyone off because I do not concern myself with what they do. I am not trying to convince anyone in here of anything. I kept this going because I know there is at least one person that has been following this thread and will apply the things I wrote and live a good life.

I would not deny someone a good life because it does not fit my business model. Like Egg said "this industry provides a guy with nothing a way to build a good business and live a good life".

Just got back from doing a repair and got caught up on this post. Look's like that ad really stirred up the hornet's nest. It wasn't me I swear. It was "Ole Willie". :laugh:

I didn't know it but the guy had some other roof repairs that needed done in addition to the two power fans that weren't working. Ended up selling him those repairs as well and did all of it today. The whole thing took about 6 hrs and I made about the same thing I would have made sub-contracting tears offs from some jack-o-lantern in a weeks time. :huh:

I used to do pretty well at sub-contracting tear offs back in the day but I was young, high strung and could nail 15-25 squares a day by hand. 27 2/3 sq. on a government apartment job was the best day I ever had but those days are long gone. If I got 8-10 put on these days I'd probably pass out as soon as I got home. :unsure:

B) :(