license in pa

pa is starting a concractor license program this year. the requirements are very low in my mind. license is $50 for two years no testing and $50,000.00 insurance required. what do you guys think of this.>>>

Bump>>>

Hi ! I live in Erie,PA. I couldn't be happier that they are finally getting a liscence in place. In Erie, 5 out of 100 residential roofers carry worker's compensation. Most of the contractors don't even understand they need it. They just do what the others do. They believe the $500 a year general liablity covers them, and they 1099 all their workers. I should know. I was one of these companies until I fully understood that the other companies were running illegally. If the liscence checks if you have w.c. then I am all for it. If it doesn't, than I think it is worthless. I feel sorry for the worker's that are working for the companies in my area that are recieving 1099's from employers and believe that they are employees and nothing is wrong. My prices have doubled since all my workers have become employee's, etc. It would be nice to see a few more in this area do the same.

Kyle>>>

House Of Pain: [ RE: license in pa ] , Friday, January 09, 2009 @ 6:48 AM I am a : Roofer Mike,

...You lost work to an incompetent contractor who would have lost his license if the job had been in Florida. Florida's system is no prize, but with all due respect, the P.I.A. inspectors here would have caught the problems your describing and issued a stop work order and ordered the contractor to correct the problems. ...

Jeff, But see the problem here is not the contractor, but the actual "building authority". THEY ARE THE ONES that have allowed this to happen. They are so technically incompetent, and/or willing to cut costs, that actual code compliance means nothing to them on their own facilities. Facilities that owned by the people. The taxpayers. The contractors. The very people they want to "protect and govern". That is why I refuse to tow the line, and refuse to allow them to pass judgement on me and my operation.

Having read your posts, I understand your frustration. Although we've never met face to face, I feel as if I know you from our years of posting on this forum. You strike me as a consummate professional who is morally and ethically grounded. You have a higher calling. You need to fix this problem. You need to be involved in the process. You don't strike me as the kind of guy who stands by and watches injustice. Get involved politically.

I do appreciate that, but as I've stated in previous comments, I believe this whole process is what wrong with the system, not what will make it right. More laws on me will not make me better, nor will they make most of my competition better. We will still have contractors, owners and government authorities that will do whatever they can to make or save the almighty dollar. I work hard to create and maintain a business model that is above the average, and work just as hard to secure a customer base that values the same kind of quality that we do.

I realize my limitations as well. When I see some of the work that is performed by Tinner, Egg, Pgriz, you, TRG etc, where you deal with materials that are not inherently waterproof, that are rigid and unforgiving, yet you form those materials in such a manner as to provide a beautiful, durable, watershedding roof covering, through no other means than persistently high quality craftsmanship, I am humbled. It makes what we do with membranes a bitumen seem easy. Maybe in that marketplace, licensing is a good thing, IF AND ONLY IF it has real teeth that discern, define and command quality. If it doesn't, then as I've said before, its nothing more than a roadblock to the entreprenurial spirit.

Crooks are normally intelligent. They will consitently figure out a way to beat the system and profit from its loopholes. Good men that want to enter the business world deserve the chance. These laws make such entry difficult. A good craftsman does not need to be a good business man, and I have no opposition to losing work to good craftsmen that are trying to figure out the business end as they go.. If a customer does their homework, they can discern who is good and who is bad. It is my opinion that the vast majority of home/business owner horror stories are far more related to ignorant greed on the part of the purchaser than any other single item. Chasing the dream promised in the low price. A bad craftsmanship project is just a likely, if not moreso, to come from a high energy sales, big volume, low quality contractor, of which there is no shortage......... but their paperwork's in order, they have all the licensing and code requirements.

I know we/I ain't gonna solve the worlds contractor problems here, but I don't think politics is in my future. I would rather fight city hall than join it. >>>

MikeH and JSC bring forth valid points.....

On one hand "licensing" for the most part, (most states/municipalities), is somewhat equivilant to BBB's/trade associations....They're meaningless, and simply dupe the uninformed consumer.

On the other hand; California's contractor licensing, does, in fact, provide the consumer effective safeguards, as well as weed out the majority of "jacklegs", (is that still a popular term?)...

To some of us; We just can't get past the ethical/moral aspects.....There either needs to bo effective licsnsing or no licensing at all.....IOW's, some of us are all bent out of shape constantly, because on one hand we're told it's the law, and then the law-makers go ahead and reward the non-law abiding......It goes on in every form of gov't....and it's getting worse everyday.....To truly flourish in this business, one has to go the extreme and disregard any and all gov't intervention/regulation concerning business....Of course this must, be orchestrated in compliance/blessings of the liberal/kool-aide drinker powers that be....

I know, I know, I'm babbling......>>>

from what i read, the bill in pa sounds like that-no license, no lein rights on the properity. not a thing about waranety>>>

Laws requiring licensing do NOTHING to protect the homeowner in Michigan. If a consumer hires an unlicensed contractor, the contract is unenforceable. Sooo, the courts will not hear cases of fraud if no license, AND, the court will not hear cases of non-payment for services rendered, if no license.

For the consumer in the know, it's a good way to get a good deal on a roof, if the contractor is competent, but has no license. Simply refuse to pay the balance due at the end of the job. ON THE OTHER HAND, if the roof leaks or shingle start sliding off a year down the road, there is no recourse through the courts to force the contractor to stand his workmanship.

If the contractor is licensed, there are penalties imposed for doing shoddy work, and he can figuratively be taken to the woodshed for infractions.

HOWEVER . . . local consumers make decisions every day to hire unlicensed contractors. Did the law requiring licensing stop this activity. NO!!!! It makes the activity illegal, but it doesn't stop it. And in the great state of Michigan, with a nation leading unemployment of 9.6%, for every unlicensed contractor caught, about 10 more will appear in his place.

And, from a political standpoint, gonna be hard to justify locking up every Tom, Dick and Harry who just wants to feed his family and keep a roof over their heads. Lots of competent building trades employees who are looking for work right now.>>>

Hi Jeff,

Everyone has a point and can phrase it to make their point.

Every law puts more expense on the business. The honest business with a new law, even though they were already "obeying the law" is faced with a choice. The cost of complience will put me in the red. How do I meet my responsibilty's?

Okay the strong survive. I believe this. Going out of business and working for a srong company is an option. Taking this option I will need to stick my creditors. My new job will not allow me to meet my obligations. I try to struggle along.

I diffintely have no time to get into the political process. I need to work every hour just to tread water.

So I was an honest businessman. Instead of giving the people a better roof, I need to keep the goverment happy. So I keep the goverment happy. I lower my standards. I start to have have half my workforce working for cash.

Eventually the small bussiness is out of business. Only big companys can follow the laws. Goverment is a business partner. Now we are a socialist society. History has proved that you do not get a better product with this process.

When I was a jackleg one more law to skirt meant nothing. So the borderline finacially solvent contractor will be forced out of business.

I know your point was more on workmanship. If you only look from your veiw it makes sense.

I see your point as a short term illusion.>>>

Hi,

Never seen a law that made anyone honest.

Laws make otherwise honest people disonest.

>>>

Although I operate in compliance with Michigan's licensing requirements, I understand and sympathize with Mike's perspective.

I've grown weary of our state and local municipalities using poorly written and enforced legislation to criminalize those engaged in the trades. I know that much of this eminates from a desire to protect the consumer from every possible poor decision that they might make. Can't be done.

Witness the ineptitude and incompetence of our government in the current economic mess. Need we say more?

For further insight, read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.>>>

Jeff,

I'm not a scofflaw until the law attempts to reduce me to the level of my competition.

As I've stated often, the laws that govern contractors in the state of Ohio are minimal, at best. In my particular base market area, the Port Authority convinced the 5 county region to make them the local building authority.

The port authority has purchased two large facilities that have been idled. One, a steel mill, had deck so bad that widespread replacement was necessary. Instead of replacing deck, they allowed one of the contractors that meets their minimum requirements to fasten corrogated steel to the underlying steel beams, at a minimum of 10' spacings. The steel is resting on NOTHING. People are going to die when it collapses.

Another facility that we had been replacing deck for the owner, BP, on a methodical basis on, was purchased by the PA. The same roofer that did the above mentioned job did an inspection for them and declared at a public meeting, for the newspaper and all to hear "The roof of this facility is is good condition".

The roof was split wide open across thousands of squares. Huge sections of Rapid Roof and a torched on APP were loose and blowing in the wind. Trees were growing out of the roof, when it rained outside, it rained inside. Shards of rusted deck were hanging below the joists. Where the roof was relatively intact, it was so deteriorated that the 1" fiberglass insulation was filling the deck flutes and the BUR was resting directly on the deck with the configuration of the deck flutes plainly visible through the roof. This was a former Superfund site that BP was trying for years to unload without putting any more money into than necessary.

When it came time to re-roof it, the spec was "cover the existing with 8 mil visqueen and install a Durolast or Fibertite membrane."

Of course we told them it couldn't be done and Fibertite wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. The durolast guy did it, at prevailing wages, at a price so ridiculously low that the mere cost of labor and membrane couldn't be covered.

Are you getting the picture yet? The goal was to get this guy the job, then do the deck replacement on the back side, and OF COURSE there was no "unit cost" for deck replacement in the bid documents.

To the PA's credit, they were not aware of the problem, even though any moron could look up and see the falling deck. That's the kind of COMPLETE INCOMPETANCE I'm dealing with in my local "building AUTHORITY"

If refusing to tow the line and eat the crap being shoveled by such an incompetent organization makes me a "scofflaw", then I guess it's a badge I'll wear. With pride.

I've not heard too many possitive stories regarding the level of competence in field inspectors from anyone, including the tough state of Florida. When these guys rise to the level of the people they want to ride herd over, then I might buy into the notion. As of right now, I ain't buyin'.>>>

i would gladly take a test on my roofing knowalge in order to get a license. the bill as i read it said nothing about any testing or proff of credit. it just wanted to know the names that you do business under. we had a big wind storm back in june and i worked on repairs for a week or so and every job i was on i could find a workmanship problem, nailed to high , 3 nails, you know the scene.>>>

4 years ago, a local gvmt agency took over the building code compliance for a multi county area. They want full plans, permit applications, blah, blah, blah for a re-roof.

In 4 years, I have not applied for a single permit in their jurisdiction. Once the head guy ( a former archtect) stopped a major job, with significant structural deck replacement. I marched into the XXXXX office, laid out a full detail report of the code violations THAT VERY AGENCY blatantly violated on their own projects that we did not get because our way of doing things RIGHT was too expensive. I had photos, proposals, and post project descriptions of what they actually did vs what should have been done. I said "If you shut down another one of my projects, this information and any I gain in the future is going straight to the news. I'll apply for a permit when you start doing things at or above the level that I already do it. You approving of my work is like asking a garbage man to supervise a brain surgeon."

I've never been hassled again. And if I am, we'll be seeing that agency in court.>>>

BTW,

West Virginia, a state we do business in, does require a license. I am the license holder. It required an extensive test on both business management and installation procedures. Most of the install stuff was on residential, slate-tile-metal, and BUR......... all things which we don't/rarely do. I had a 98% on the test and the particular grader said it was the highest score he'd personally ever seen.

What's that prove?

Not a friggin' thing.

As long as my license is posted on the jobs site, and I maintain a bond/letter of credit/or other form of security covering 2 full weeks wages for our entire WV labor force, I'm good to go. It's a program with some teeth. If you ask me, that particular program was designed to protect union roofing contractors, not consumers. Hell, a contractor like me should be tickled to death with that program and the hurdles it creates to the new contractor. But sorry Charlie, not me. Regardless of who or what a license program is designed to protect, in the end it hurts entreprenurialism and consumer sensibilities. And that is unamerican.>>>

Jeff,

What proof does a license provide that the sub has skill? Did every crewmember pass a test? What is the requirement for licensing? How does the license make for a better installation?

Were not talking about code compliance issues here, just licensing issues, so keep the answers on the licensing side.

TRG,

All those things you mentioned, I agree with. I already do them. Screw the government trying to get involved with some incompetent schmuck wannabe that couldn't do it on his own, so he gets a government job and now is gonna tell me what we're doing right or wrong. F*** that. Maybe F*** that 3 or 4 times. LOL

I'll make sure my potential customers understand what we will do, what our credentials are, why we are better, etc......

IMHO, licensing laws are built to accomodate the least common denominator, and will give some half-assed-hack-wants-to-be-like-mike a piece of paper that says "In the eye of the Great Beholder (your government that screws everything it touches), either of these two companies is equally good." I'll fight that kind of crap till the day I die.

ORCA has tried to install a licensing program in Ohio for years. I won't support it, no how, no way. I'd rather build a better mouse trap and let the competition figure out how to catch me. I reckon if I was them, I'd want that piece of paper too.

Maybe it's different on the resi side, but I don't really see how or why. Customers are customers, there's good and bad in every market, and imho, price shoppers should get their due reward.>>>

i called the ATT GENERALS office in pittsburgh today to find out more. they told me that they do not have anything ready yet as far as applaction for the license. it goes into effect july 1st.>>>