How did we get here?

Thought this deserved it's own post.

How/why do we have the current workforce/labor pool, that is primarilly made up of Mex. illegals and nucklehead/ "bubbas"? Or is it just fine, as it is?

My 2 cents; When I started in the late 70's, it was the lure of good $, healthy-outdoor activity, pride of a job well done, comaradary, aspirations of advancement. In a few years, I was making twice what my buddies were making after completing their college and going to work for big corps or the gov't. Those of us in the construction sector also enjoyed other perks, such as work-time/days flexability, and the mere feeling of self-sustainability, rather than dependency on "the corp." or "big bro".

It's completely flipped today....Construction in the private sector pays didley, compared to what it did 20-30 years ago. Who else better to fill those positions than the most undesirable/rum-dumb bunch?

Here's some facts that may startle you; I picked a small town/rural area where I began my construction career. 1980....Private sector "journeyman" roofer......$ 15.00/hr. Prevailing wage (gov't).................$ 17.00/hr (+/- can't remember exact) 2011....Private sector.....$15 - 17/hr Gov't..............$44/hr

Private sector wages have been destroyed due to illegal workforce willing to work for less. To reiterate; Who is going to work for 30 yr old wages?

Tom, it could I'm having a difficult understanding problem. I'm almost certain that we agree on most issue. Because they are rants it isn't clear what exactly you are saying. Nothing good can come from capitalism based purely on selfishness. I want to believe this is what you meant in some of your rant. However, virtually all freedom has been acquired by capitalistic motives. B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

twill59 Said: As a country we've invested in nothing and spent on everything. Truly, the other guys fault :dry:

AMEN!!!

Tom I'm sorry I read your post and marvel at a smart reasonable fellow spewing such IMO crap, I don't want to be inflammatory, I'm just stunned. Whatever its intentions, the "entitlement state" not capitalism produces far more selfish people -- and therefore, a far more selfish society -- than a free-market capitalistic economy. And once this widespread selfishness catches on, we have little evidence that it can be undone. I can only think you didn't follow your post through with reason and were acting on emotion. Capitalism teaches people to work harder; the welfare state teaches people to want harder. Which is better? You can decide for yourself and act accordingly B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

crashnburn Said: GKRFG & TomB. Wow! Solid!

Had someone say to me that we need the illegals cuz they do the jobs americans wont do, for example pick cotton, she said. Well, heck, if picking cotton will pay the bills and keep the roof over my head (no pun intended. lol) I personally have no problem doing it. Honest Labor, Honest Pay. Or is it? The labor, yes. The pay, notsomuch.

Employers can pay illegals less wages therefore charge less for their product, whatever that may be, and they figure its all good. Were there no illegals the pay for that job may have to be raised to attract workers, or to meet minimum wage in some cases. Yes the price of said product would increase but, hallelujiah, employees are making more money and can afford it.

Sounds too simple? Ikr.

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Just want to point out that labor savings are not always passed on to the consumer.

For instance, a pair of Levis is produced in China for about $2.00 a pair, then resold in the US for $40.00 and up. The middlemen are just cutting the American manufacturers out ot the picture and sucking up all the profit.

GKRFG & TomB. Wow! Solid!

Had someone say to me that we need the illegals cuz they do the jobs americans wont do, for example pick cotton, she said. Well, heck, if picking cotton will pay the bills and keep the roof over my head (no pun intended. lol) I personally have no problem doing it. Honest Labor, Honest Pay. Or is it? The labor, yes. The pay, notsomuch.

Employers can pay illegals less wages therefore charge less for their product, whatever that may be, and they figure its all good. Were there no illegals the pay for that job may have to be raised to attract workers, or to meet minimum wage in some cases. Yes the price of said product would increase but, hallelujiah, employees are making more money and can afford it.

Sounds too simple? Ikr.

jimAKAblue Said: I dont think its the illegals that are driving the prices down. In MI, the illegals were a very small segment of the construction workforce and wages have been dropping since I started in the 70s too.

So what is driving the prices down? Thats a good question. I think it stems from the average size of each construction firm. What other industry can boast so many one man bands. What other industry has so many companies that only own one pickup truck and a handful of tools?

Wanna get into the Nuclear Energy business? Try doing that with a pickup truck and some wire.

Lived in MI my whole life til 4 yrs ago when I ran screaming from the economic despair. Illegals were never an issue in MI. (illegal canadians maybe, lol) ergo your comment does not come from having illegals as a huge issue as it is in other states.

Signed, AZ

Well said GKRFG and TomB.

Truth be told, they've been good for business here. We have so many lic. and unlic. hacks and SOB's here that I mentioned it on my website and spend 99% of my time repairing their work. Repairs are easier when the roofs are fairly new, and it's 'premium' pricing there. I missed the recent depressions manily becasue of the sub-par work going on.

To steal a quote...."Cheat like you've never cheated before".....or something to that effect.... :laugh:

GKRFG Very logical.....In the purest sense, we should throw-out our TV's, stop reading the newspapers, and quit wasting our time voting....."Survival of the fittest" in this narcisistic world.

We survive and do very well, (relavent to our so-called competitors & times we're experiencing), on referrals alone. Have for years...Our sales/marketing is extremely limitted to very small yellow page ads that I don't believe generate anything anyhow....Can't recall the last job we landed that came from yellow pages/internet...Just doesn't happen.

Apologies for straying off-topic....

GKRFG....Thanks for putting it all together....Very clearly put, & I agree, almost to the letter.

I know many otherwise very inteligent/savy induviduals will disagree, but a basic root to your explanation/resultant is the lack of effective state contractor licensing....It's not a magic bullet, but would be a start in the right direction.

There are two dynamics to which if implemented, would catapult the roofing/construction business into a more desireable realm....State contractor licensing & the enforcement of current employment laws/regulations.

State contrator licensing, (effective); Would eliminate the riff-raff & unqualified.

Enforcement of employment laws as intended; Eliminate the "sub-game" & use of cheap, illegal alien labor.

These simple two "dynamics" would absolutely rock the construction world.

When Mercedes plant open its doors in alabama there were 65000 applications for 1500 jobs.Wages in that plant vary between $16-$25 an hour.Roofing foremen in nashville area earn around $28 an hour.

I was watching a newscast about all the unemployeed and jobs moving to the east. To be honest, I busted out laughing. They interviewed some guy who explained that once he can get in the door, he'll be albe to move up to exec level within 9 months, or worst case a year.

:laugh: :laugh: Back in the day, company structures looked like a pyramid. Large lower levels consisting of 'lesser' employees, getting smaller as it neared the top where the top guy sits.

In this century, it's supposed to be upside down with one mailclerk/flunky/crewman/jobleader doing everything so the execs on ALL the next levels up could show they created something on the back of the mailclerk/flunky/crewman/jobleader so they could move sideways or upward until the top floor is chock full of execs sending notes downward the clerk to get toilet papaer and get into an even bigger McMansion.

So the moral is, go to school, go to college, get a job as a top exec somewhere, get a McMansion, and be CEO in another two years.

TomB Said: 1099d employee?...A bit of an oxy-moron?

1099'd employee?...A bit of an oxy-moron?

All wages in the private sector have suffered....BTW, during the housing boom, there were plenty of illegals wiring....as I'm sure they were plumbing & HVAC'ing, as well.....Not as prevalent/dominating, as all the other trades, but they were there.

All this...Be that as it may...It is what it is...There's no wonder the labor pool is at it's current status, with all the, (some may say), scatter-brain notions out there, (pardon the expression).

Trades that don't have any illegal immigrants like eletricians, HVAc technicians etc aren't faring any better.They earn close to what roofers earn.