EPDM or Torch Down??

Oh, yeah, Kenda is another mfr of epdm, and the brand that makes Manville's product at the moment. Manville and Carlisle had a fall-out during the iso shortage when Manville kept their product for their customer's and left Carlisle sort of high and dry. So Carlisle jerked the rubber line from Manville in retaliation, and Manville had to find a new source. Manville's now in the process of trying to establish themselves as a player in the epdm market again.

At least that's the line I've heard. Can't speak to authenticity from personal experience or knowledge.>>>

Weeeellllp,

While I don't understand or condone Mac's degree of agression and sarcasm, I have certainly been guilty of it myself from time to time.

I do believe that those of us "born on third base" take an undeserved beating. I have yet to meet the decent man that didn't want to see his years of labor benefit his children. I have yet to meet the decent successfull, retired business man that passed on an opportunity to his children that thought the road his children faced was easier than the one he himself walked. The animals we tame may be different, but are no less ferocious, and many of our father's will say "I couldn't do what you do today". In end, a piss poor attitude and poor work ethic will destroy a business, whether it's a startup or a 5th generation. The real truth is that most men don't have what it takes to create a legacy. A lot of startup founders came from just such men. And the childen of many startup founders are just such men as well. In the end, failure or success is our own to make, and the only real stupidity in life is to look an opportunity in the face, tell it "no thanks", then chase down the bus, and tell your second chance ".... the town is that way...." while watching your golden ticket drive away. (from Dumb and Dumber for anyone that's never seen this absolute classic of human nature)

I have met any number of startup founders that deeply desired to pass their business on their children. I have met any number of startup founders that were deeply regretful that their children had no interest, or they had no chidren to pass it on to. I have met many startup founders that had such desire, but in the same breath would curse a multi-generation guy like he was scum. (somehow he didn't see the irony in that)

There isn't a single one of us that succeeds at any level in this business that is a second class citizen, and to hate any of us simply because we are a 2nd or 3rd generation of people with a strong and independent work ethic is nothing less than ignorant jealosy at it's worst. Even a true "silver spoon" can't keep it going forever, and there is always someone hungry beating at the door of your customers.

With that said, the awards that Mac speaks of, regardless of who actually earned them and a subject of which I have no knowledge, are very nice awards. Unlike most mfr's that simply award on the number of squares installed, Firestone's award system is so heavily weighted toward quality, that it is impossible to earn these awards if you have leak call backs, or if you require a re-inspect on your work.

We have earned a few of these awards, although we do not install enough quantity to accumulate the points needed for the highest level. We picked up some biggies in the mid 90's when we did more rubber, but I'm most proud of the "partner in quality" that we earned 8 straight years. You have to be in the top 25% of "least warranty claim expenses", and achieve a certain volume to qualify. Firestone even offers a rebate check on the warranty fees your company paid as those warranties age without expenses being applied to them. We dropped out of the necessary volume level a couple years ago that was required to make it past 8 years. Mac's awards are the same, but at the very highest level of the scale, and he should be proud of them, whether it was him, his dad, his granddad, or his granddad's dog that won them. They do speak loudly to anyone familiar with the Firestone award system.>>>

well...yee fricken hawwwwwwwwww!!!

I have read this entire thread over, and you know what. Despite all the chauvinism, testosterone, egotism, and immaturity that has been typed in this thread, If someone were to read between the lines, they would find the answer to almost every issue that engineers face when discussing Modified vs. rubber. It just took a lot of added sarcasm, and ball busting to get there. I would like to think that the original poster got the answer to his question, and that anyone else that was ever curious about what we in the field have to go thru, day after day, with these products, got a great education. I have to admit that some questions, that I might not offer answers as easily as some, come spewing out of my mouth when I am provoked by the opposing position. I think you can learn more by re-reading this thread than you can from a years worth of book learning, and maybe a lifetime.

Just like the analogy of the baseball third base thing...I also have one, and it has provoked a few in here and they know who they are. They don't say much anymore, but like a train wreck, they can't look away.... and here it is....... "PIMPS...please don't provoke the whores on a rainy night!!">>>

You seem to have a big mouth Jed, what are your credentials? Or do you just live in your parents basement and spend all day on the internet?>>>

lol you dont have a clue, but it is ok. Per usual, a thread has degenerated into uslessness>>>

yup that is about when we started to do in en mass. About 15 years ago. Not 100% sure of the exact date but it was early 90's.

I think it is a huge improvement over the splice adhesive, to much room for worker error with the black glue IMO >>>

Flaunt Jed?

How did I flaunt them, they were not initially mentioned or brought up by me, but rather you, or your way of trying to have me verify my credibility!

You asked me twice for them.

Not Inherited at all, I've been doing this for a very long time, I know what it entails to earn them, never due to one person, but a collective all following the same game plan.

And insolence, and arrogance?? are you the pot and the kettle?? You have offered nothing constructive on this thread at all, all you've done was insult. I've offered reasoning behind my thoughts regarding the threads topic. Where are yours? Like I stated before, Vaa and I may disagree, but I respect the fact that at least he is debating mostly the topic, and defending his position. >>>

No longer my Grandfathers company Builder, hasnt been for many years

And what u copied and pasted was in response to this by VAA:

"I refer to brands because rather than you and Macroof I have vast experience of what is out there in the World market, not just your little corner, epdm is a lot more than Firestone and Carlile despite what you have been brainwashed by their salesmen. I am not a saleman, far from it, but I have installed at some stage just about every product that you can put on a roof that there is, except Polyurea and SPF.

You scissormen ( what torchers down here call rubber installers) are very narrowminded, have you ever installed Carliles material? if you have then you will know that its different than Firestone.

Are all Bostonians arrogant bastards or is it just you and Mac?"

--- so, like I sd I did respond in kind when attacked.

>>>

Yes, it is true...I remember when your Grandfather's company received those awards. Isn't that company still in business? I'm not sure that recognition like that is transferable down the line to every family member that decides to finally get into the business. Just ask the Cazeaults and the Raboins....

Macroof: [ RE: EPDM or Torch Down?? ] , Friday, March 27, 2009 @ 10:39 AM I am a : Roofer Vaa, I guess the saying is correct old dogs like you can't learn new tricks! You traveled the world, Like a roofing Caine, installing every type of system known. But yet you have seemingly ended up just a lonely one man, truck conglomerate (except when you have a "big" job, then you hang out at the local Junior high and get some talent)

I think the only thing you have learned in your 60 plus years is how to insult, and put down. Try and stay on topic in the future, if you can control yourself.

looks rather condescending to me....am I the only one that feels this way?

All us old Caine's travelling the world. making a living.....supporting our whiny assed, big mouth offsprings in the hope that some day, they won't have to become a lonely one-man truck conglomerate, but to use their education to do something more with their life than to aggravate the world on an international level because someone gave them a hat , a pencil, and a title to hang on their letterhead. >>>

Firestone - High five award Inner circle award Golden Q award just about every conceivable one they've got, most of these for 20 plus years in a row, ask Mike H about them, I think he sd they've at least got some "Q"s

Multiple Roofing advisory boards

First company To install 30x and 50x rolls of rubber

will that suffice? >>>

Builder, Respect has nothing to do with the amount of years one has survived on this planet. But rather what that person did with them.

And, if you read this thread, objectively, you will see that I only RESPONDED in kind, I will re read just to make sure, but I am fairly confident that all I did was state my position, and gave my reasons. And as I trust the thread will show, I was attacked, multiple times before I responded. I never put down Torch down, I just stated my belief on what was a better system. If you check you will no doubtly see that others, just put down me, and epdm.

GO check, I will too,>>>

They have been referenced here b4.

Do you even Roof Jed?>>>

suddenly I am proud and ashamed of being from Boston..... ironically...both at the same time.

I was trained by a German roofer that learned his trade while in some sort of war camp thing....kinda reminded me of a Schindler's list sort of thing. He wasn't trained in boom cranes, lulls, dumpsters, and gas engine powered ripping rigs. All of his tools came out of a small canvas bag that he carried like a army general wears his gold stars. Everything he needed to work with was in that bag, and he could do everything. My point is....his trade isn't in mass production, whip the crews , big box roofing....it was.... go find and fix this leak.....slate, copper, T&G,...and he had a niche. To talk to him today...at 82, he still resists the appeal of the new fangled rolled stuff that all the cowboy roofers are rolling out. Fortunately for him...the skills that he was trained in were still a commodity over here in the US. But there was and still is no quick fix for those services, face down , ass up roofing...says it all.

Despite that.....the total disrespect for your elders is something that I know for a fact, if your grandfather heard you talking that way to his mechanics.....would kick your ass all the way from Norfolk County Hospital to Ridge Arena and back. And as far as a one man band, trolling the high school parking lot looking for roofing help......you have NO room to talk...trust me... how do you think MAC Sr found me. It's nice to be the heir to the throne, but you've got some balls to belittle those that you feel are peasants.

>>>

Dumbed down?? Or an evolution of what was? I see nothing wrong with improvements, that is what should be strived for in all aspects of life.

Tape has been around longer than 8 yrs Vaa.>>>

How do u know he is a craftsman?? Really? How? because he says so? Because he takes a cple pics? Do not let your desire to believe something alter the reality.

>>>