Do you pay your employees enough?

Would you consider them middle class?

What does a 3 bedroom 2 bath house average house cost (not a mansion and not a dump)?

Assuming someone purchased it with 20% down, what would their mortgage payment be on the remaining 80% on a 30 Yr. loan?

What's the average car payment for a car that is less than 3 years old?

If you add those two payments together, can your employees pay that monthly expense out of a single paycheck after taxes?

If so, they are living a middle class life. >>>

Old School, please elaborate.>>>

It's not a simple as frugality/save.....That's why we're able to move to where we can continue to stay in business and proper....Sure, we could have stayed where we were at....Twiddle our thumbs...Maybe enter the job market....But I wasn't ready to call it quits....want a bit more for my family...So here we are.....It just sucks to experience what was once a respected, (and profitable), trade/business go down the tubes.....>>>

I am lucky. I learned my savings lesson some 20 years ago and it has stuck with me very well. It's hard lesson, and being in my early 20's made learning and starting over very easy, by comparison.>>>

Mike/Lanny, as well as a few others; All very true. However, your simply stating the obvious of another topic, than what was started here....But, I'll go with it also....I'll mix it up some more....

Currently we live and work in a community where a simple 3 bdrm home commands $ 500K minn. To rent;$2,500/mo. minn., fuel is darn close to $3/gal. grocerys are a bit higher than that in the "city" , the avg. pay for a tradesmen, (roofers, carpenters, what have you), is $10 - $20/hr. There may be a few that get more....We pay $15-$25. We own a beautiful 4600sf custom home on 2.5 acres in an area we were forced to move from due primarilly to the degedation of the local workforce as well as the trade itself......

I told my wife that we just don't fit here anymore.....That if we wanted to stay in the roofing/construction biz, we would have to move into town and live in the rum-dum trailer park...I could hang out everyday at the local pub with the rest of the jacklegs....So here we are, paying absorbident rent for a piece o' s#*! dump of a house, while our beautiful million$ home sits empty that we can't sell for 1/2 that! We're here because we can still make $ as a contractor...I pity the worker-bees though....And yes, most of them aren't worth 2 cents anyway....So here we are......WTF happened?

Trouble is, there's not much sense to change career paths now; At 52, w/2 young boys, I've just got to make another run at it...so-to-speak....

I suppose we've succumbed to the excessive/glutenous appetite for "the good life" in some respects......But not really. We work very hard, are honest, and are fairly frugal people....We just got caught up in a mess. (meaning, and extremely simply put; The current moral decay of this society). JMVHO>>>

Egg,

Honestly, your reality is so far from mine, that I can't even begin to comment on it. I can't comprehend it, let alone talk intelligently about it.

Dad just bought 25 acres with an old farmhouse for $115K. Land is still cheap here by any any definition. We don't have hurricanes, we don't have smog, we don't have traffic, we don't have regular weather extremes (over 95 below 15), we don't have earthquakes, forest fires, overcrowding, immigrant problems or a host of other social ills.

A 1977 ranch in a well established middle class neighborhood, on a 1/2 acre lot. About $150-220K depending on all the factors that dictate desireable from undesireable.

An old-town 40-50's house, two story box with a decent detached garage, newer siding, may still have the old slate intact, maybe not, can be had for under 100K.

A million dollars around here will buy you a 10,000 sq ft mansion on 100 acres, and as some relatives have learned over the past 2 years, it's hard to find a buyer. Why is it so hard? Because anyone with that money can find the cheap land to build their own dream, instead of having to learn to love someone else's dream.

However, we have scads of 30-50 year old couples that are being forclosed upon, because they left their nice little homes described above for the new McMansion developments, their lavish trims, commercial quality yet unused kitchens with granite counters, tile baths with 5 jet showers, master suites that rival fine hotels, because they were were tying to keep up with the friends, while driving new Escalades, on lease, maxed in every way to the hilt of every paycheck, forgoing their employer's 401K's because they needed EVERY dollar to keep up with their payments of home cars, 4 HDTV's, cable, internet, 4 cell phones with unlimited text packages, soccer and dance uniforms, ATV's and the rental storage unit. Both mom and dad working every hour they can, so they can buy then next thing that the neighbors buy and keeping the kids in the latest fashions. Middle class americans are living lives beyond what lower upper class did 30 years ago.

People with a real balance sheet may make twice as much/year as those that are flat broke, but they live a life that appears on the surface to 1/2 as grand as the folks that are broke.

These same broke families produced children that thought a mobile home or a 40's fixer-upper was beneath their status. They are the buyers of the 1977 ranch for 180K. The one with no furniture cuz they can't afford any. The one that is professionally mowed because they don't have time to mow it between the jobs and picking kids up from daycare, don't have cash money for a mower, but can say "Lookee where I live". The wicked cycle begins on a higher level.

But that is what I see around here in the hearland. What has occurred on our seaboards is something I can't speak to.>>>

rotfl. As usual, RCS thread separates into variant strands. Everybody has good points, they speak to different ends (unless you consider revolution as a single constant) but I have to pursue the house comparison. Around here the '77 house was 1800 square feet, two-car garage, nearly vertical grain fir framing, tile or shake roof, tile counter-tops, masonry chimney, redwood trim. Cost about 43k. On the downside, the windows were substantially cheaper, the insulation a little thinner in the roof portion, the water heater and hvac unit less efficient, but all metal ductwork, and lacking a lot of steel hold-downs etc...though some of that stuff is only here now to stitch together inferior framing members. This is to distinguish it from the 50's and early sixties homes which were typically much smaller. (That's the stuff I grew up in: 1200 ft. and single car garage and no going out to dinner on any casual basis. Snowy little tv sets and listening to the ball games on the radio.) So what? Those houses are still there, now selling for 400k even without upgrades. A brand new one, you get finger-jointed fascias, plastic baggy ductwork, no redwood, comp shingles, a chimney chase and wood stove if that. Not buying that argument, despite the fact that there is merit in Mr. Hicks' line of reasoning and good reason to explore it further. Building lot costs are ASTRONOMICAL by comparison. The seventies house described had 1-2 ACRES coming with it. The new one: a small lot, period. The seventies house included driveway, well, and septic. The new one a water and sewer hookup with monthly dues. If you want the two acres and the well and septic, now you are talking in the range of one Mill. No-go. We're losing ground. Period. Now what to do about it and what causes it and the other contributing factors is another matter. btw, on the merits of the baggy ductwork vs. the leaky metal ancestors, imho and from what I have personally experienced, vermin have a very easy time penetrating the soft stuff. If they can dig under or pry into your basement, they tear that stuff up in minutes.>>>

Amen!>>>

Hi Jed, that was Jeff that made that comment.

Jeff, how much of our paycheck did the government take back then? How much would a typical 1977 house cost today?

I still contend that it's not the wage that's the problem. Our wages are not keeping up with our tastes and desires, ie:, the credit crunch. Government is far outpacing our GDP growth with their own growth, taking even more purchasing power away from the worker. We don't need more organized unions, we need a revolution.>>>

seen-it-all understands quite well. Organized labor? Don't agree with that.......Curbing the illegal worker onslaught would provide the quickest and most efficient results.....Don't the unions somewhat embrace the illegals? (Very generalized statement; I undestand)>>>

What do I win? :)

In 1975 in Calgary Alberta I paid 30 cents an imp. gallon for gas which now is 4.5 litres. I was making $3.93 an hour as a group #3 machine operator for CP Rail. To fill my 20 gallon tank cost me $6.00 or about 1.5 hours labour.

Today I filled up and it cost $1.129 a litre or about $5.08 an imp. gallon. My 20 gallon fill cost me $101.61. At the old 1975 labour to fill ratio of 1.5 hours labour I should now make $67.74 an hour.

Interesting to note that the $67.74 per hour is very close to the amount of wage of $65.90 to pay for a downpayment on a 2009 home in the reply above.

Just a side note. In 1975 I could buy 39 chocolate bars at 10 cents each on my $3.93 per hour wage. In 1977 I could buy 38 chocolate bars at 15 cents each (the price went up) on my $5.75 per hour wage. If I went to the corner store today to buy 38 chocolate bars at $1.25 each plus 12% tax it would be $53.20.

Cigarette prices in 1975 were about $4.50 a carton of 200 or about 1.15 hours of labour at $3.93 per hour. Cigarette prices in 2009 were about $87.61 a carton of 200 or about 1.15 hours labour at $76.18 per hour.>>>

BINGO!!! Congratulations seen-it-all. That was the point I was trying to make. Labor in America today is being taken advantage of by American Corporations. I own an American Corporation. I would pay more it I could still remain competitive. Until labor across the board starts demanding higher wages things will remain grim. Labor may have to become organized to accomplish this.

>>>

In 1977 I was a front end loader operator at $5.75 an hour. Minimum wage was $3.50 an hour. Bought a house for $27,500 with a 10%downpayment of $2750.00.

The downpayment cost me about 478 hours of labour at $5.75 an hour or about 772 hours at minimum wage of $3.50 an hour.

In 2009 the same house costs about $315,000 with a downpayment of $31,500.

If the $31,500 downpayment costs 478 hours of labour for a machine operator in 2009 he should be making $65.90 an hour and 772 hours at minimum wage should be $40.80 an hour.

Minumum wage is now $8.00 an hour and a front end loader operator would be lucky to make $25.00 an hour (actual rate around $21.76 an hour)>>>

PC; I agree...moslty...we're just spouting two different topics in one here.....There were the same idiots back then as there are now......I was sticking with the wages compared to expenses these days, as compared to years past.....It's true; If your savvy and make wise decisions you'll make out....If your wastefull and stupid, you won't ever get ahead, no matter how much you made....However, TODAY, the cards are most definitely stacked against the "worker-bee"....>>>

Mike; What you say is all well and good...I was attempting to directly reply to Roof Doc's question.... The bottom line is that roofers,(construction craftsmen in general), have slid waaaayyyy down the income/"good-life" scale in the last 20+ years....

My very first roofing position was on a tear-off crew in 1977, after leaving the local "big company job".....I started at $ 8/hr...In less than a years time I had graduated to kettleman, on to 2nd man and $ 11/hr, (which was pretty-much top pay in those days).....Taking all things in perspective, (ie, housing, vehicles...general cost of living), by my calculations, in order to maintain the same lifestyle, that same roofer ought to be making somewhere in the vicinity of $ 50/hr. today.....

To back that up, I have personal friends that decided to go the civil service route and do make $100k+/year, ($ 50/hr.). In 77'-78'; When I was making $11/hr, my buddies where making 1/2-3/4 that at their civil service jobs....It's all topsey/turvey from yester-year....>>>

In 1983 a roofer around here made 8-10/hour with no benefits of any kind.

Today they have health insurance, 401K, bonus, other perks, and make 15-25/hour

Back then a car had few amenities, today even the most basic car has amenities than a lot of homes didn't have 30 yrs ago.

Homes today are equiped with everything, fine furnishings, extravagent electronics, 70/month cable bills etc.

back then, most families at at home, today few do.

government has continued to take a larger chunk of our pay, not only through payroll taxes, but taxes on many of of the things we use and do every day.

I contend that it is not the workplace that is the problem, but a government drunk on power and money, coupled with a populace that lives higher than they are willing to work for, in many cases.>>>