cricket tamko valley install with questions for the pros

Hi gang, a "roofer" botched my cricket. BADLY! Location, VA and NC border with some heavy rains and up to 12" of snow. I'm redoing it and have a couple questions for you pros. Before you tell me I'm doing this backwards, here's my reason: I would have shingled the cricket side first since it'll shed less water, but the curved turret and where the first shingle would have landed looked like trouble (and the Tamko tech rep advised I go the way I'm going), so I've done the lower slope (higher volume)side first. I have peel-and-stick in the valley and felt over the peel-and-stick. These Tamko shingles are - so far - done by Tamko valley instructions. Their next step is to proceed with what most folks call California cut and some call Tamko Valley. The only difference I see is the Tamko Valley doesn't weave the first shingle of the 2nd side. The 5 photos are in zoom-in sequence. The first 3 are all as instructed for the first side of the valley, the final 2 are with the second side, first shingle, running up the valley and set back 2" from the valley as in the instructions (I'll trim it curved to fit to the turret before installing). Please see the photo attachments and give opinions on whether or not the next step flashing should go under or over the up-the-valley shingle (or if I should use closed cut instead, which makes the first question irrelevant). If I put the flashing under the up-the-valley shingle, it won't be available to put directly under the final layer when I finish the cricket side of the valley with the regular runs. Should I NOT do a Tamko Valley here, but a closed cut? since getting 3 layers of laminated shingles all stacked up seems overdone AND since it's a 3/12 slope and some recommendations are to avoid CA cut in low slope roofs. Seems like closed cut would be fine, but Tamko doesn't have that as an option.Thanks for ANY help!

If you aren't going to remove the stucco and rework the flashings there, then just finish it up and hope for the best. My instinct still tells me the problems will occur in the portion already worked, but if all the parts are sealed together you may get lucky. Can't tell from here.

From what I am getting, your plan going forward sounds right; level the courses and finish it up. Like Lefty and Tinner say, it's too hard to describe exactly what the process is...which parts go where and in exactly which sequence. You can cut the tips of step shingles where they peek out from under a course because of the angle they are on.

The step shingles should come down far enough to cover the laminated back piece on each shingles or water will track sideways on it. You can extend the existing with shims if you have to, but working them up under the stucco is going to be nearly impossible. They don't have to be full height at the wall to give you protection at the laminate edge in the field.

If you snap that line Tamko is telling you to snap two inches above the true valley, which is fine, it's going to be interesting trying to decide where you're going to stop at the bottom where the turret pulls away. If you draw a plumb line from the valley straight up to where your first fully-exposed step shingle is now, you can't be jamming a new layer of anything up against that stucco anywhere to the left of that without entirely relying on a mass of sealant.

Sealing the vertical legs of step shingles together should really only be done in a hidden manner, as you lay them up, not top-sealed. Top-sealing is a dangerous practice. If you're not careful, top-sealing will trap water in the joint. If you topseal, you have to monitor the seals regularly.

Good luck with it.

tinner666 Said:

stevewithaleak Said: Tom B, sorry, I dont know what water bucking is. Can you explain? quote]

Water is going against the lay of the roof/shingles. Its going against the grain, so to speak. The shingles have to lay in the direction of the water flow WITHOUT interrupting or diverting its flow. The shingles you see running up the cricket are only the first side of the valley. This is exactly done by Tamko's directions. They get covered by the up-the-valley run (2" up from the valley bottom) and then by the rest of the shingles that run parallel to the cricket ridge and make the other side of the valley - so the final result is all surface shingles are laid perpendicular to the flow.

Like Lefty pointed out, you might need a touch of caulk or cement in strategic places, but I couldnt begin to explain where. Yes, I am using 2 products. One is rubberized flashing sealant and looks like roof tar, the other is called Thru-the-roof and I'm gobbing it into old nail holes and I gobbed it into the joint between the roof and turret junction at the eave as I laid the starter shingle, first run and first step flash. Like I said before, use the water to chack and recheck each move you make. And realize that storms will change the direction of water flow at times. For sure! Thanks, I'll do that. And I do understand, water runs downhill MOSTLY

:S One thing that worries me is snow piling up against the turret/cricket junction, melting and going in the vertical slits of the step flashing and up over my epdm that I stapled to the turret before the step flashing. Is it ever advisable to seal vertical slits between the steps?

egg Said: Where those bricks are stacked up at the base of the stucco we should be seeing metal. Metal would show if the bricks weren't there. There's almost 2" from the roof deck to the bottom of the stucco.The bricks are stacked to hold the just laid shingles down where I put a dab of flashing sealant tar between each step flashing and the shingles above to stick them down.As the turret wraps around the curve I can see that water will be running under the shingles.

After shingles pass through a pitch break to create the receiving side of a valley, the rest of that vertical stuff were seeing just gets buried and is therefore superfluous. As you seem to indicate, it just adds unnecessary bulk and uses up all the available space under the copper step flashing. So then, do you think I should lay that step under the up-the-valley shingle? Or do you think I should do a standard closed valley instead and eliminate that Tamko valley method?

But the leaker has already been created lower down where the apron flashing is buried in the comp.

Its not a cricket. Its functioning in your roof system as a dormer. An island. The new photo makes it clear. I think you'll see it as a cricket now, since the turret is like a round chimney on the side of the house. The copper has to make a transition from over the comp at the bottom to into the comp at the sides. If you dont want to see any metal when you are done, you will have to glue some comp to the top of it but you cannot nail it down. Round stuff is difficult.

If that copper is just a continuous series of small step shingles wrapped around that entire circle, you are pretty much done for. I see how my earlier photos were deceiving - the step flashing just goes around to where the turret protrudes from the upper roof. As long as I have a good kicker and seal it well at the roof to turret stucco transition, I think I'm good to go there, don't you?

Before reroofing this area, I put 2 layers of peel-and-stick down the valley and under all the step flashing and extending out onto the main roof. And before the first roofing job, I ran epdm from the roof deck up the sides of the turret - but only up 4-5inches (wish I'd gone 12"!) Doing the tear off, it was obvious where the original "roofer" sabotaged me since he repeatedly nailed in the valley, ended shingles in the valley and cut through the felt - and he didn't put any kicker flashing at the turret/roof edge transition, so even though it looked ok to the untrained eye from outside, water was traveling down the roof from up in the valley, inside the felt layers and then between the house wrap and stucco lathe - and then behind the flashing and house wrap into the cathedral ceiling below. In my repair, I don't have any nails nearer to the valley than 6", and on those, I put patches of peel-and-stick to cover the nail heads for extra protection. Each shingle, so far, has a step flashing done the normal way, I'm just wondering about the best way to move beyond where I've stopped to wait out this next weather coming in. It IS step flashing all the way around and the stucco is the counter flashing - but as you can see in the newer photo, this turret isn't an island sticking up thru the roof - so there's no apron flashing. The only way to change the flashing that's in place is to tear off the stucco and start over - and I really want to avoid that. Thanks guys for all the feedback. Please say more!

stevewithaleak Said: Tom B, sorry, I dont know what water bucking is. Can you explain? quote]

Water is going against the 'lay' of the roof/shingles. It's going against the grain, so to speak. The shingles have to lay in the direction of the water flow WITHOUT interrupting or diverting it's flow.

Like Lefty pointed out, you might need a touch of caulk or cement in strategic places, but I couldn't begin to explain where. Like I said before, use the water to chack and recheck each move you make. And realize that storms will change the direction of water flow at times.

Tom B, sorry, I don't know what water bucking is. Can you explain? Chuck, the thing on the roof is the top of the upstairs shower. Believe me, my first design was a simple, one story, but the High Command needed a fancier house. One of the biggest mistakes I've ever made! This view of the house I'm adding should make it clearer what that thing is.

I would never have put architectural shingles on such a low slope, what is it a 2/12 or 3/12 pitch? Laminated shingles will leak on such a low slope water will travel sideways under the butt joints and find nails to rust out 5 or 6 years you got leaks popping up where ever. Three tabs you can do it laminated wont last.

I would use the techniques said above. I would also have a bucket of roof cement there. You would not see any of the roof cement when I was done.

I can not put into words how I would do it.

I learn how to roof by watching how the roofs were installed. What worked and what did not. Some of the techniques I have learned are not in any books.

Unless the picture angle is screwy, those shingles are definitely *bucking*. See how their facing more forward and water gets directed straight underneath them? It wont work as is. I would step the sides and use metal valleys, with the valley bent up the wall and around the corner lapping the top step. Doesn't need to be copper, aluminum is fine. Is that stucco? if so your going to end up tearing most of it off and redoing it.

Set a bucket or two of water on top of that. Get a big gulp cup or soemthing and see where the water goes,a nd how it flows. You'll need amix of flashing under/interweaved witht he shingles, and some on top of the shingles like termination flashing. Iffy areas will get both.

Take your time and you can make it look nice and neat. Just pay attention to details. BTW, 7" and 8" step flashing won't work. set a shingle in place and make each flashing accordingly making sure you get at least 3" lap on each and every piece. Piece of cake. :)

Where those bricks are stacked up at the base of the stucco we should be seeing metal. As the turret wraps around the curve I can see that water will be running under the shingles.

After shingles pass through a pitch break to create the receiving side of a valley, the rest of that vertical stuff we're seeing just gets buried and is therefore superfluous. As you seem to indicate, it just adds unnecessary bulk and uses up all the available space under the copper step flashing.

But the leaker has already been created lower down where the apron flashing is buried in the comp.

It's not a cricket. It's functioning in your roof system as a dormer. An island. The copper has to make a transition from over the comp at the bottom to into the comp at the "sides." If you don't want to see any metal when you are done, you will have to glue some comp to the top of it but you cannot nail it down. Round stuff is difficult.

If that copper is just a continuous series of small step shingles wrapped around that entire circle, you are pretty much done for.

If someone called me to bid that job, I would bid to remove both the turret and the cricket from the roof, then deck it in and shingle. What is that thing doing on the roof? Doesn't look pretty to me. :blink:

Water runs down hill, (generally)

I can't tell exactly, but it appears you may have some water-bucking where you have shingles ran up on top of what is a head-wall detail (?????)