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Coffee Conversations LIVE from FRSA: What's Hot in Florida with Leading Contractors! - Sponsored by SRS - PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

SRS - Coffee Conversations LIVE from FRSA: What
July 26, 2022 at 6:00 a.m.

Editor's note: The following is the transcript of an live interview with Joe Byrne, Matt Criswell, David Crowther, and Bridget Jenkins Wilson . You can read the interview below, watch the webinar, or listen to the podcast here.

Joe Byrne:
Contractors. Very involved with the roofing industry in south Florida as far as codes go. And I am also on the Building Code Advisory Board so we help people out.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I think, wow. And Matt?

Matt Criswell:
Hi, yes. Thanks for having me. Matt Chriswell, I own WeatherShield Roofing Group and I also own Marathon Roofing and Contracting. Again, I'm a third generation Floridian.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Nice.

Matt Criswell:
1879 family, I don't know when your family came. I too am on the board of directors for FRSA and I am the incoming president. Looking forward to some issues we're going to talk on today.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow. Yes. Some really important issues. And as you all know, yesterday on Coffee Conversations live here also, we had manufacturers, distributors, Trent Cottony, John Kenny were on here yesterday and they talked about, I'm going to ask the same questions. We want to know what's happening, but we wanted it from two different perspectives. Today we're really going to be talking from the contractor perspective of people who are very involved, as you can hear, in the market. You know what, David, I'm going to start with you. What are you seeing right now in the Florida market?

David Crowther:
Well, down in Southwest Florida where I'm centrally located, I do a combination of residential and commercial roofing, and I do a lot of new construction. Right now, what seems to be driving my backlog right now is the bid market is still very, very strong, and I have an awful lot of work on their backlog. I have not seen it slow down as far as business development goes. And I'm sure we'll get into this later, but getting materials is another challenge, but right now the market, at least down in Southwest Florida, is strong.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. It's really interesting because we keep hearing some naysayers, some things, and not that we shouldn't listen of what's of coming out there, but in the roofing industry, it seems like things are going good. In fact, Wayne Heironimus just went by, he's down from your part of the state. And he said that they've decided they're just not going to participate in any downturns. I was like, okay, that's good, let's go with that. Bridget, what are you seeing?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
We're going to choose to not participate in downturns as well.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's perfect.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
I think that's a great idea. As far as the market goes, we're a smaller roofing company and we do a lot more repairs than we do re-roofs and we don't do any new construction. What's interesting is our re-roof market has gone up while our repairs have gone down, and I'm speaking residential, not commercially. And that has been very, very interesting. And again, we'll get into that with the insurance-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right, yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And how that's forced many people's hands. That's kind of the trend that we've seen in the market is that people are being forced to replace versus repair.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And that has a whole bunch of impact to different things with non-renewable resources, I could go on and on, but that's how we're seeing it is that there's that switch, which is being controlled by insurance companies, things like that. But as far as the repairs go and what we're seeing with that market is there's a lot better roofs being put on. The repairs that are being done, most of them aren't from terrible workmanship where those used to be, I mean, hand over fist they would come in. Now the repairs that we're getting are legitimate, regular wear and tear, a squirrel that has a problem and decides to destroy something, branches, things like that. That's kind of what we've seen is I think that the Florida contractors have stepped up their game. And so that's always great. We always want to make money off of repairs, but not because somebody else didn't do their job properly.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right, right. And this is one of the things we really didn't have on here, but to that point, there hasn't been a lot of storms.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Correct.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's kind of changed things a little bit up too.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
It has. And with the new codes, even when we do have the storms, it's interesting what we've noticed. There's not as many wind storms, but the amount of rain that we're getting all at once is a whole new ballgame. And that's been super interesting with repairs. Telling people, this is a wall problem and no, water's not supposed to be going up your wall. No, your architect did not make a mistake. No, the builder did not make a... This house wasn't supposed to have this type of rain.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Rain, yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And explaining that to somebody and letting them understand that we're going to have to find a workaround and find a way to keep the water from coming in, but it's been interesting.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
The weather patterns changing, it's been fascinating.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I can't believe the amount of rain we've seen this week. It's crazy. Yeah. No wonder it's so green and humid.

Joe Byrne:
Well, to expand on what she said, I mean, it is really, to expand what she said. That is really the crux of the problem, because they're building the building's better, but they're having roof and, not roof problems, but wall and window problems.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And I get called out a lot of times and they're saying my roof's leaking. And I'm like, well, it's not raining.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And then when you get out there, especially like quadraplexes on flat roofs and all that-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh yeah.

Joe Byrne:
It's usually the air conditioner leaking.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And when you tell them that it's the air conditioner, they go, I'll call the next roofer. And that's a problem.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
They don't want to hear... We're coming in, it's always our fault.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Of course.

Matt Criswell:
They just want it fixed.

Joe Byrne:
They want it fixed.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Just because it's coming from up top-

Joe Byrne:
Exactly.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
It's the roof. Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Because roof installations are really good.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
I mean, some of the materials are hard to get and I'll expand on the re-roof market in south Florida is very vibrant. I mean, there's a lot of good projects going, new construction in re-roof. The big problem, like you said, was material.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Especially in-

Matt Criswell:
All of the material.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
You get a lot of one, but one component's missing. You can't put it on.

Joe Byrne:
Well, just to talk about that-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
I'm in the buildup market, we do a commercial on condo and the first thing that has to go down is the insulation. ISO board, you can't even get it.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
I mean, I go down 95 and I see a semi pulling ISO board down. I'm like, oh, is that going to my job? I'm going to follow it.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah. That's right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And find out where's-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
What's the golden ticket being down the road, woo.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I know. Wow.

Joe Byrne:
And that's the basis. If you don't have that, you can't start.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And then a lot of the building owners don't understand that and they think that we're just not paying attention to them. And what I try to explain to them is that we want to do your work.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
We want to do it and we want to move on to the next job. And when we can't get the material to start, it's not our fault. And it's that trickle down effect. It's not the roofer's fault, it's not the supplier's fault and it's not the manufacturer's fault. It's materials, the raw materials and everything.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
We're not buying a lot in this country so it happens. We have to rely on foreign people.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Then we had that freeze out in Texas and that-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Resins.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Yep. And that really messed up the foam market as far as roof tile and everything. It's been a lot of perfect storm.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Perfect storm.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Series of unfortunate events.

Joe Byrne:
Exactly.

Matt Criswell:
That's right.

Joe Byrne:
Exactly.

Matt Criswell:
That's right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Been a little thing called COVID on top of it.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I know. Matt, what are you seeing?

Matt Criswell:
Saturation.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Ooh.

Matt Criswell:
Lots of saturated market. I mean, I'm sure it's with every industry, but seems that there's anybody and everybody that can put a roof on goes and puts a roof on, and a lot of them won't be here tomorrow. A lot of them are just working out of their shop. Again, it goes back to material. Material's the biggest player right now.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
And you said something that really sparked me. I was going to chime in, but I wanted to wait. You said roofs are really made real well, better than they were 25 years ago. Much research and development has gone into it. You got quadruple the nails on the decking now-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
You got double layer of insulation most of the time. And so roofs should last more than 25 years.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
All these insurance guys are forcing it to get torn off every 10 years with the insurance companies and that's become a big problem.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's it. That-

Joe Byrne:
I agree.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. You know what, we're going to come back to materials because I want to talk about that again, but since we're here and let's go with that, let's talk about this because this is a huge issue in Florida-

Matt Criswell:
It is.

Heidi Ellsworth:
What's happening with the insurance and we had a great podcast.

Matt Criswell:
We did.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And you talked about it a lot on there [inaudible 00:08:10].

Matt Criswell:
Great for you and I. Some people might not like it, but great for you and I.

Heidi Ellsworth:
You know it. We're going to bring the issues up.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We're going to talk about them.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
What are you seeing? And especially you're going to be the incoming president.

Matt Criswell:
I am. One of my initiatives is this. And I want to preface this whole conversation with, I'm not telling the insurance guys that work just doing insurance to go out of business. I'm not asking for that. I don't think the industry as a whole is asking for that, but there's rules and regulations for a reason. We've got to all play by the rules and regulations to be on fair ground. They, I say we, they that strictly work on door knocking, and I'm going to get you a free roof because that's how I can make the money is not how we need to do roofing. Roofing is cyclical.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Criswell:
When you take the cyclical-ality out of it-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes.

Matt Criswell:
That component, then now it's roofs that are structured to be done every 10 years and we have a big slump. Roofs are put on, there needs to be a continuous path. What's going to happen in 10 years-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
We're going to go through, I think my personal opinion, this same type of material shortage because the roofs that are getting put on now, good materials, they're done right way, but they're not being put on the right way because they're subbing out the labor part of it.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Ah yes, yes. That portion of it.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah. Insurance has to get changed. There has to be a reform. Has to happen sooner than later.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Joe, I mean, as the current president and then, I mean, you two really on the executive team of FRSA, you have a lot going on to really address this, right?

Joe Byrne:
We do.

Heidi Ellsworth:
What are some of the things that FRSA is doing to help try to change this?

Joe Byrne:
Well, legislative, we have Chris Dawson, he's the head of our-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Okay.

Joe Byrne:
I guess our fight and-

Matt Criswell:
Our political action committee.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah. And so he keeps us in tune with the bills that are being introduced and what it's going to mean to us as contractors and for the general public. And like Matt said, one of the problems we have out there is as contractors, we're trying to sell the best roof possible. And I can tell you, my strategy is to go before these homeowners, board members or whatever and give them the good, better, best idea.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And that way, and I can explain to them good is good, better is better, best is best. And when you start explaining the length of the life of the roof, the expectancy, that's where people will say, oh, I do want the best, but I don't want to pay for that.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
I want to pay for the cheaper, but I want the best. We all know it doesn't work that way.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Exactly. But the thing for me is, I mean, like Matt said, they're making some of these people tear them off at 10 years when all these roofs are going to last a minimum 20 years if they've been installed proper, right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
And so myself, I've gone to the environmental side. I want to dust them up and get them on board-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Saying, hey, all this stuff's going to the landfill and doesn't need to.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
That's a big problem.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And I have business insurance, I have homeowners insurance. I have a metal standing sea roof on my house. I know I don't have to do anything for that for the next 40, 50 years-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
If I'm still around.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
But these homeowners, these insurance companies are telling them, you got to tear that roof off. He just put a good roof on it. 10 years later, they're telling, now you can do it-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
Or Matt can do it.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
That's got to stop. And the free roof, there's no such thing.

Matt Criswell:
No such thing.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
No such thing. That's so annoying. Well, and the environmental ramifications is what absolutely blows my mind is we're obviously not the most green industry, obviously.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
We're not the most green country.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
True. But the amount of waste of, I mean, I've had crews that have literally called me from the rooftop, we're at the wrong house. No, you're not. Yes, we're at the wrong house. This is a perfectly fine roof. I know, but you have to tear it off, but it's going to be impossible to even get these shingles off. This is a real, I know. And it's heartbreaking because-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
You realize that this is the homeowner's money gone. Yes, we have a business, but it's not the right way and it's not the mojo that we want.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And you see these dumb trailers full to the brim of this non-renewable resource and you know where it's going and you know that you can't do anything about it. And as the new truck pulls in with all the new stuff that you know how it was produced and you're thinking, none of this was for the right reason.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
No.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
None of it was for the right reason. And I think that one of the most important things with our political action committee and making sure that the roofers are the ones that are making the decisions on these roofs, not somebody who is, no offense to white collars, but you're in an office.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Have you been on a roof, do you know?

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Do you know what any of these words that you are putting out actually mean?

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And it's so super important for us to make sure to have our hands in that so that way we are in control of the roofing industry, we are in control of the rules when it comes to roofs, even with insurances.

Joe Byrne:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And we're members of Greater Tampa Realtors because we do a lot of work with realtors, but their political action committee feels the same way that the roofing industry does actually.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
They don't like the free roofs. That's something that they actually go to bat for, for us as a roofing industry and we don't even realize it, but it's really neat to see the two different political action committees have the same end goal, which is protecting the homeowner.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
The endgame is protecting the homeowner.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Exactly.

Matt Criswell:
I think David and I, we do a lot more... I do more commercial bar none. I mean, I might only do dollar wise, single digit percentages based on my commercial. Do you get insurance claims for commercial work?

David Crowther:
All the time.

Matt Criswell:
All the time.

David Crowther:
All the time.

Matt Criswell:
We get a couple a year.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
But it's also not what we go after, but-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
We only get a couple a year.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Well, I was curious on that. Thank you. That's exactly where I was going to go is, we're talking a lot about residential-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
But what are you seeing with this on the commercial side, David?

David Crowther:
Well, I don't want to drop the residential side yet because I want to chime in because-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Oh, good. Please.

David Crowther:
I have not seen it brought up on this committee or in today's podcast.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
The insurance companies cause real problems here. They just have.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Yes, they have.

David Crowther:
You guys, everybody knows in the roofing industry, when there's a claim made, how much money the insurance companies are paying.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

David Crowther:
We all know how much money it is.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
I mean, that's why they call them stormers. They run around the country chasing storms because the insurance companies pay twice as much as they should.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
And then the end result is you and I as homeowners end up paying that.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
And they want the roofs replace in 10 years. You know why? Because it costs them a lot of money. Let's just replace them every 10 years.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Isn't that their goal?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
That the roofs don't blow because it's all about money, isn't it?

Matt Criswell:
Sure.

David Crowther:
It's all about money-

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
But yet they pay double and triple the value of a roof when you replace it.

Matt Criswell:
Because we want a qualified roofer to put it on, we'll pay more.

David Crowther:
[Inaudible 00:15:25]-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And then a sub does and it's crap.

David Crowther:
Commercial, it's even worse.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
I've seen it. I've seen some of those rates that the insurance companies will give you for a re-roof for-

Matt Criswell:
1,000, 1200, 1400 square foot.

David Crowther:
Per square foot of the tear off, for example. And all of a sudden you find three roofs piled up.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
And next thing you know, you're in the millions rather than $100,000 in.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Wow.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
And it's such a problem caused by the insurance company-

Matt Criswell:
Sure.

David Crowther:
That to me, they should swim in it.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
I mean, again, I'm held responsible when I do something wrong.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
I don't know why the insurance companies aren't held responsible.

Matt Criswell:
How are they going insolvent is my question. Are they writing bad policies or they overpaying and the kiddie's getting too low and they're protecting their you know what's?

David Crowther:
Well, yeah, are they going insolvent, right.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

David Crowther:
When's the last big city you guys drove through and the tallest building in downtown Dallas or Chicago or New York. They're all insurance companies.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh.

David Crowther:
You don't see tall roofing companies.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
That's a valid point. Wait a minute.

David Crowther:
I just don't see a 70 story roofing company.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
I see the insurance companies.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Sure.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Well, and think-

Joe Byrne:
Who's sponsoring all the Bull games and stuff like that?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
You go to Bull games-

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
They're all there.

Joe Byrne:
You're going broke. I mean, I don't like to go that broke.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I know, right? One of the things that I've seen, I mean, one of my very first shows in the roofing industry was when I came to Florida and that was right after hurricane Andrew. Malarkey kind of came into this because they had the 100 mile per hour wind. And they were talking to insurance companies then trying to get some of these things changed. And it's just taken so long. I mean, and it's still not happening. You might need to raise your mic a little bit. There you go.

David Crowther:
Listen, I also understand that an 18 or 19 year old roof and a storm comes by and insurance company doesn't feel that they really should have replaced, but yet they have no problem taking your premium every month.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
They have no problem taking it, and I'm sure some insurance reform will be looking at that.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
Maybe something after 10 years of depreciating something to make it more equitable to both the insurance company and for the homeowner.

Matt Criswell:
For homeowner, right.

David Crowther:
But again, at the end of the day, it isn't the roofers or the homeowners that cause this problem, it's all been the insurance company, at least in my eyes.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. No, I hear this all the time. I just want to go back, Bridget, what you were saying too, is about really bringing multiple industries together to go and start fighting this on a state level. And that's really FRSA and the realtors. I mean, I love that. I think that's so important, advocacy and having people involved in advocacy is key. I mean, I know Tammy Hall who works with you, David. She is chair of the national roofing contract association government affairs. We have the FRSA that is doing all these things. I just kind of want to come back to that. What do you think the industry needs to be doing more to kind of start getting our voices heard even on a larger level?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
I think as far as roofing goes, and again, I grew up in the industry. I see how, and I love that you guys have the roofing respect and there's this connotation with blue collar and trades people that we are not as high up as the insurance companies with the Bull games, which by the way, SRS Heritage did Bull games. Let's toot their horn for a minute. I would love to see that. But I think one of the things is that we are a force to be reckoned with in a good way that we want to benefit our communities, our states and our national rules, but with that, I think that, and I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but perhaps our PAC, our political action committees can look at what other huge organizations have that same... There's a lot of us that have that same end game. And why are we-

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Not joining forces? Here are the realtors, here are the roofers, here are, I'm sure there's other industries out there that all want the same thing. And we're all each paying our lobbyists, and these lobbyists are just going and picking at little things, but if they join forces and we join forces as these large groups of people who have a smarter understanding of home ownership, I think that would make a huge impact.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I do too.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And involvement in your local community. I get involved with the building officials.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
I'm a member of the BOAF, Building Official Association of Florida. And I go in and I talk to them all the time about all these code changes they're wanting to come up with. And the code changes are well and fine, but getting them installed properly and everything is a big thing. In Palm Beach County, in the last 10 years, they've gotten rid of all the tech schools so there's no more tech schools.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes.

Joe Byrne:
They got rid of shop classes.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh, yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
I mean, I'll use myself as an example. When I was in high school, I'll tell you what, I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do, but I went to shop class, my favorite class. I love-

Matt Criswell:
Joe and I both, four years of shop class as well.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Joe, shop.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
And we don't have it anymore.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And that's what inspired me going to work with my hands.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
Now my brother on the other hand, he wanted to not go to school, he hated school. He became a professional student.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
I went out and worked with my hands.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
But those options are drying up.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
And even with the apprenticeship programs that we've started through the FRSA and associated building contractors, that's a start, but we need to get more of our companies to put the employees in there to get them trained-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Because not to say anything bad about the... Thank you.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
You're welcome, sir.

Joe Byrne:
Not to say anything bad about the contractors, but we all basically go through the same employees.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
It's like a carousel.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
We trade them.

Joe Byrne:
And right. And one thing I always say is why don't we train these people?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
Because they're going to work for David one day, they're going to work for Matt next day or whatever.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
At least they're trained.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
The apprenticeship programs are not trying to steal employees or train for somebody else. There's a company in Fort Lauderdale, Advanced Roofing that really got involved-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes.

Joe Byrne:
With the apprenticeship program.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
In Palm Beach County, I tried to do it in the 80s and in the 90s. And we got it all set up, no participants, which is really poor. The excuse was we don't want you training our guys to take them away from me. That wasn't the intent.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And that is changing. People are realizing, now we got to stick together on all this.

Joe Byrne:
We do.

Matt Criswell:
Yes.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
It's very important.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Because don't you want train them...

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Even if you do it in house, even if you do it in house-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
It would be better than just getting them off the street.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
I hate to say this and I don't know if I can, but I don't want no Home Depot or Lowes guys who are standing out there looking for a day-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right. Day laborers.

Joe Byrne:
Putting my $100,000 roof on.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It actually comes back to training and what we're talking about and the pro certification that everybody's involved in and what Florida's been doing with apprenticeship, I think is a major thing. I'm going to take that topic, I'm going to come back over here, David. Talk about what you're seeing, training and labor.

David Crowther:
Well, a couple of things just to expand on what Joe-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Was saying. I think the training obvious is important, but one of the legislative things that we were looking at when we had the roofing day in Washington, DC, which was phenomenal.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
It's the first time I attended this year, I had a great time and I'd be surprised if I don't not return-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
With how much I really enjoyed it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. It was great.

David Crowther:
But one of the items that we were pushing was there is so much money given to the kids graduating from high school going on to college.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
98, 99% of that money is geared towards that. And nothing geared towards the trades people, right.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

David Crowther:
Yes, training's important, but it does cost money.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
And when I invest money into an employee, yeah I'm worried about so and so stealing them, that gets really, really expensive.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Right?

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Exactly.

David Crowther:
And then I think the stat, if I remember right, was 30% or 35% of the college students are first year drop out.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Drop out, yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
But there's no money for them to go and to get trained. And so I think that's really, really important is staying involved at your local association, at state level, at the national level and follow this legislation-

Joe Byrne:
Right.

David Crowther:
Because we need the money as bad as any college student because putting a roof on-

Matt Criswell:
I would say not even as bad, I think more.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
More.

Joe Byrne:
More.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Because the tools.

Matt Criswell:
I think the trade needs more.

Joe Byrne:
Absolutely.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
The colleges are making hand over fist money and they're getting grants.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right. Right.

Matt Criswell:
The trades aren't getting any of that. That's-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Well, I did both

Joe Byrne:
I did a grant for a roofing apprenticeship program.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
It's like pulling hen's teeth.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
I mean, they don't want to give the money up.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Well, I went to USF and I always joke because my career of choice was teaching, my career of birth is roofing. My parents' dream was for, neither one of them attended college. Their dream was for their children to go to college as most parents' dreams are.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yes, your child's in an air conditioned setting, it's wonderful, it's nice and clean, but going to college was so easy, for me at least. Once you get in. Obviously it's a little difficult to get in, but once you're there-

Matt Criswell:
Sure.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
There's scholarships, there's this, there's people helping you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Going to contractor school, way different. And what a different mentality too because in college it's all young people and you're all not the brightest bulbs in the sky at that moment-

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Because you're growing, you're learning.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And then go to contractors exam school where it's a wide array of ages, mostly men of course, but a lot of people taking everybody under their wing or how can I help you or what do you mean you don't understand? Let me help you. And I mean, I can't even tell you the amount of support that I felt more so at contractors school than I did in college-

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Sure.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
By my peers.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Peers being other contractors.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
But yeah. And there was no money, it's do you have the $1,500 at the time, long time ago, to buy all of your books?

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Do you have the gas money to drive there? Can you have your full-time job and still go? Yeah, the funding needs to be there.

Matt Criswell:
Yep.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
There's some, but not.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And that's really, to your point, that is what's happening with this roofing day in DC, nationally, Florida, I believe is looking at a roofing day, right. Or you are-

Matt Criswell:
I think they have-

Joe Byrne:
No, we're working on it right now.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Working on one, yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Chris Robinson's trying to put it together. Years ago we used to travel up there for different bills. We all crowd into Tallahassee with our-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Two by fours with our single nail on it trying to get the point across.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
But we are definitely working on it now.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And I think that's really important when we look at this because it kind of goes back to, okay, we've talked about insurance now, we've talked about labor, about the need for trades and for apprenticeships and for just CTE overall career. It all goes back to having a voice and to doing what you all are doing right here, being those leaders and getting involved. I love that. Let's go and let's talk a little bit about the one we started out with, material shortages.

Joe Byrne:
Our favorite topic isn't it?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Favorite topic. I'm going to start with you on this one. I mean, how are you handling it and what do you see?

Matt Criswell:
Man, handling it has been tough. To have a conversation yesterday, I used to say I'm a part-time roofer, part-time weatherman, because we're always watching the weather. Now I feel I'm three parts. I'm part-time roofer, part-time weatherman, and now I'm a logistics director. Trying to figure out stealing from Peter to pay Paul, how can I get this customer? We've got one I won't mention, but they gave us a letter that says, we're canceling our contract because you can't get it done in seven months. It's like, the order's in it's 800 squares. The order's in, I can't just do little bits and pieces of it. They wanted us to do 175 squares, we did it for them. We had to find the material all over the place, paid top dollar for it. Can't do that and stay in business. Yeah. Shingles for us has been very easy.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Criswell:
TPO, ISO, screws, plates, it's been... Difficult's not the right word, it's just challenging.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Challenging.

Matt Criswell:
Been challenging.

Heidi Ellsworth:
What are some of the alternatives that you've been using when you can't get that? What are-

Matt Criswell:
EPS.

Heidi Ellsworth:
EPS, yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Think GAF's just getting the approval now. EPS, secure rock-

David Crowther:
Lightweight concrete.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah. Lightweight concrete.

Heidi Ellsworth:
That's what I've been hearing too.

Matt Criswell:
Self adhered.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
But the self adhere is just the same price as PVC so why don't we just use PVC now, because they've got that stocked up everywhere.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Then it comes down to price.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
You got an alternative, but it's more expensive. There's got to be a give and take and again, who bears the burden of it? It's the customer.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Yeah. On the commercial side, I mean, I know you guys are both commercial and David you're seeing... What are some of the changes you've made around material shortages?

David Crowther:
Well, you got to stay fast.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
That's for sure. Flex specifications, you got to stay flexible on specifications. And what I found really the most important thing is just educating the owner.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Educating the owners your first battle.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
And then there are always, there's some owners that just don't believe you and will hang up and try somebody else and they'll eventually figure out that what you're telling you is the truth.

Joe Byrne:
Okay.

Heidi Ellsworth:
But yeah, primarily you're right. It's the low slope commercial market is where I have the sleepless nights.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

David Crowther:
Whereas metal products and shingles and concrete tile, that's really not been an issue-

Matt Criswell:
Right.

David Crowther:
As of late, that's been at least manageable and controllable. We're getting through that, it's just the low slope commercial products. But changing from TPO to PVC, changing from TPO to mod bits.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
Insulation from pouring lightweight concrete, sometimes skin in a roof and putting a cover board over the top of it and retaining some of the ISO. Sometimes it really doesn't make sense to tear off a whole bunch of ISO and putting the same ISO back down.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

David Crowther:
I know there's a little loss of thermal value there, but in today's world...

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
But that's a good alternative.

Matt Criswell:
It's either leaking inside or it's not going to leak inside. Which do you want?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

David Crowther:
And so, trying to think some of the other changes going from getting rid of the screws and going fully adhered.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
There's just-

Matt Criswell:
Got to think outside the box.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Got to think outside the box.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Stay out of the box.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Flexible and creative. Those are the things that I've been hearing as you've been going through this. What are you seeing on the residential side, Bridget?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
I got to say, we are a small company and this is where being small is super helpful. It's not been too heavy of a burden for us because we are able to steer our customers one way or another. But again, we're not ordering truckloads of things.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Being able to procure smaller amounts is a lot easier. This is one of those things where, I mean, when I look at all of my big companies that we're friends with, I mean, it just breaks my heart for you guys because yeah. To sit there and have work on the wall, people willing to work and nothing to actually do it with has got to be incredibly tough, but our mainest, our mainest, good gravy. Our greatest concern was customers being able to get the right shingle color when they were down to just doing certain colors.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
That was super interesting.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And I learned a lot about the customers about how important color is to some and how unimportant it is to others.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
I never really realized the dichotomy and how extreme they both are.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
I mean, yes, we will wait six to eight months to get this one particular IKO. Okay. That's great. And they'd call me every month, is it there yet? No, still six months out. Okay, now it's five months out.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
But having those relationships with the different manufacturers and all of the reps have been great with keeping people informed or at least with me.

Matt Criswell:
Sure.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
I would assume with you guys as well-

Joe Byrne:
Absolutely.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Which is great because everyone's in the same boat and all the reps have been just wonderful with, do you want me to call your customer? No, I've got this, but them offering to fall on the sword for you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
It's not Bridget, it's us.

Matt Criswell:
Bridget, we've offered that too.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah. I can talk to your tenants or I can talk to your-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Building, whatever it is. Let them know. I mean-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
It is what it is.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
It is what it is. Yeah. It's not this person's fault, that person's fault.

Joe Byrne:
And I can chime in a little bit on that because I got a drawer full of things from the manufacturers and suppliers with the price increases. When I have the people call me up saying, well, why are the prices going up? I'll email you my lists. I mean, it's all of them. JF, Owens, Corning, anybody.

Matt Criswell:
All of them.

Joe Byrne:
Everyone. I mean, and then a lot of times on these projects, when you actually bid the project, by the time you get the material, if you don't have an escalating clause in your contracts, you're out of luck.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes.

Joe Byrne:
But you should always have that because we have no control and that's what I tell my customers and clients, we do not control the market. It's that trickle down effect.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
And unfortunately, as you were saying about the single color, a community the other day was supposed to be a flat tile and it was 12, no, it wasn't 12, 10 months out for that color.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow.

Joe Byrne:
And it became not a problem. They said what's available? And they didn't like any of the colors. And then I thought, well, you could go to a clay tile. And they're going, oh. And then I showed them some samples of clay tile and they switched, looks like that because it was more available, we got it within eight weeks and the project went forward. It looks a lot better to the community and to the people. They came out as the heroes.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah. Right, right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
There's a lot of movement. That's what I'm seeing-

Joe Byrne:
Yep.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Is that people have to, again, flexible.

Joe Byrne:
You got to adopt.

Heidi Ellsworth:
You have to move and think, and that's a little bit of a change probably from maybe pre COVID years past when there was just some very strong loyalty. This is what we used, this product. That's kind of gone away now.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
And we were talking about that yesterday in the Coffee Conversations. How have you been, David? I'm going to start with you again. How have you been kind of building those relationships and maneuvering that way because the loyalties have changed and how you work with manufacturers and distributors has changed a little bit.

David Crowther:
Well, internally we've always enjoyed some good relationships with certain vendors and we kind of stay loyal to them and they stay loyal to us. And so what we're finding right now, and I'm assuming Matt, you might be finding the same thing. Those ghost orders show up.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Whereas I put an order in, I'm told it's eight to 10 months out and all of a sudden four months goes by and they say, oh, by the way, I can fulfill that order now. That was because roofing contractors have placed orders, never canceled them or they just kept coming, switch it over to an EPS or a lightweight-

Matt Criswell:
Whatever.

David Crowther:
Concrete specification and all of a sudden the materials are there, just all of a sudden there.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Now there's no planning for that.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
Escalation's still an issue, there's still issues with that. We've been getting materials, but you got to be quick there too.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
And you might not be the whole job, so you've got to buy it and store it for a little bit.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Well, and that's just it. Us commercial guys, I can't store it.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
My yard isn't big enough to store 14 acres of [inaudible 00:34:43]. Forget it.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
The truth is the truth.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

David Crowther:
It's not available and when it is, I'll be there.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
I mean that's really the story that's being told. Join the relationship with your distributors-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes.

David Crowther:
Because when something comes available, they pick up the phone, they call us.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. And also [inaudible 00:34:59].

David Crowther:
Then I have to make a decision.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

David Crowther:
What am I going to do? Am I going to store it?

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Am I going to roof load it? Can I get paid for it? Do I need to take it? Do I have an escalation clause on my contract for that kind of stuff?

Joe Byrne:
There you go.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
I want to build on this. As we're talking about materials, it's funny how four years ago manufacturers were dead set, got to use this screw, this plate, this ISO, this material, this single ply. And now, I don't care who you use.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
It's the wild, wild west.

Matt Criswell:
Just get it put on.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
I heard the other day from a manufacturer that some people are reusing screws. That's how short it is.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Whoa.

Matt Criswell:
Can you imagine what's going to happen in 10 years? Can you imagine?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh

Joe Byrne:
I'm not sure I would do that. That's going to be a disaster.

Matt Criswell:
What's going to happen to the manufacturers in 10 years when we start having some claims because we haven't had a storm in a long time.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
We have a storm and what's going to happen? Well, those aren't my screws, that's not my ISO, that's not my glue, that's not this. It's like, okay.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
I want to add something that I didn't really... I want to expand upon what couple of these guys are saying here. The escalation clause we've talked about, obviously we all have to get involved in that.

Matt Criswell:
They never had it before.

David Crowther:
Materials never been that big of an issue to us [inaudible 00:36:17] guys because we always had a little bit to play with.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Yep.

David Crowther:
We always got there. And now we're entering into this world where we have to pay attention to escalation clauses in our contracts. And I have found some very interesting information over the last 12 months. For example, there's a large amusement park being built down in Naples, Florida called Great West.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
I was interviewed for the project and it was a large roofing project. It was in the $4 million range.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow.

David Crowther:
And I said, look, I'd love to do this job. I know my price is in there nice and competitive, but I got to have this escalation clause.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

David Crowther:
And Great West, the big Great West says, I'll give you the money now. If you take this job and sign a contract, I'll give you the money right now. Great West doesn't understand.

Joe Byrne:
Where are you going to start?

David Crowther:
They can give you the money right now, but you know what, when they deliver it is when they send you the invoice and it's not the same price.

Heidi Ellsworth:
No.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-mm (negative).

David Crowther:
It's really a problem out there.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
That escalation clause is huge.

Joe Byrne:
Absolutely.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Just huge. And you've got contractors really pushing back on that.

Matt Criswell:
Yes.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And they're being pushed back. Let me keep going here because I-

Heidi Ellsworth:
I know this. Yes.

David Crowther:
Because in the middle of all this, myself, I decided to build a building. And so like most people, I went and got a mortgage for my building and I'm under construction and I also am incurring price increases.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
It got to the point I had to call up my banker and said, hey, I need some help because the price of my billing's up 20%.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

David Crowther:
And he told me no.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Whoa.

Matt Criswell:
Wow.

David Crowther:
The bankers are also a problem here because-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
that's a big problem.

David Crowther:
Contractors can't accept those escalations, right.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
And so distribution is going to send the bill once they ship and who's left holding on this bag is us commercial roofers.

Joe Byrne:
That's right.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
It's true.

Matt Criswell:
Never thought about bank, wow.

David Crowther:
Bankers-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah, the...

David Crowther:
The attorneys and the contracts.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Recommending to the general contractors, don't accept the escalation clauses.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

David Crowther:
Take it now.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

David Crowther:
Great West, guys like Great West. And what I'm really talking about is big money.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
I don't mean pick on those. I probably shouldn't even mention their name.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It's live, but yeah.

David Crowther:
But they think because they're public and they got money, they think they can buy themselves out. It's like you said, we don't control the market.

Joe Byrne:
No.

Matt Criswell:
We don't.

Joe Byrne:
No.

Matt Criswell:
We don't manufacture, we don't distribute it.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Well, and they don't know what they don't know. I mean, it's one of those, and when you are a big conglomerate and you do have the money, you can buy your way into a lot. It's like, oh, I'll give you the money now. It's fine. No.

Joe Byrne:
They don't understand the logistics.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right. It's like, thank you, that's a great offer, but that's not going to work.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
It's one of those.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And I think it really kind of ties us back around because exactly what you're saying is if we don't have these kind of conversations and people aren't talking about it, as part of the association, if they haven't joined FRSA or involved with their local chapters, your chair-

Matt Criswell:
Or they're too proud with their pride to say it out loud.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Some roofer are too proud.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah, yeah. But these are the kind of topics that need to bring together because if all contractors are saying, hey, escalation contracts or the language has to happen, then all of a sudden, now people are standing together.

Joe Byrne:
We're talking about the bankers, I just found out within the last couple months, the banks would rather give you a line of credit. And I thought, that's an interesting idea because a $2 million project, by the time materials are going to be available, is going to be a two and a half to maybe $3 million project. When you talk to the bankers about that, they're telling the condos and the HOAs, we'll give you a line of credit and it's based upon a lot of things. I'm not a banker.

Matt Criswell:
Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Byrne:
But when they look at that, it's an alternative, if they offer it to you. Now I think that goes from bank to bank, maybe. I'm not a banker, but-

David Crowther:
It's probably in a re-roofing situation where there's equity there.

Joe Byrne:
Exactly.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
Well, I don't get involved with new construction, but-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
For re-roofing, I mean, it makes a lot of sense and it helps people out if they can do that. Now I mean in the new construction market, you were right. When all these developers see your contract, when escalation clause, they go right to the next guy.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And that's shame

David Crowther:
All it takes is one to screw it all up for the rest of us.

Matt Criswell:
Sure.

Joe Byrne:
Absolutely.

David Crowther:
That's why it's so important.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And it's the unsavvy, unfortunately. It's the, it's the newbies, it's the Greenies, it's the people that I've never been a member of FRSA. I mean, there's so many roofers out there when I meet them, I'm like, oh, are you going to the convention? The what?

Matt Criswell:
The what?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
I have to work.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah. Yeah. The FRSA, are you not a member? No, why would I join? Why wouldn't you join?

Heidi Ellsworth:
So many reasons.

David Crowther:
And so these problems that have developed over the last year is really is the leader of our company has changed my.

Matt Criswell:
Perspective

David Crowther:
Has changed my job description.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh, for sure.

David Crowther:
I spend more time now reading the terms and conditions of the subcontracts that are sent to me than I ever have in my life. I've always read contracts.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

David Crowther:
I've gone line item by line item, marking things up and doing it and getting push back from contractors and owners and developers.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

David Crowther:
I can tell you what, it's a different job today than it was 12 months ago or 18 months ago.

Matt Criswell:
18 months ago, yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
For sure.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And it has to be. First of all, I want to say, I love this, love this conversation. This is so cool the directions that this has gone. I hope everyone out there is just hearing this and how important it's so that I want to kind of, as we close down this hour, I want to talk a little bit about the importance of the associations. I just think this is so key. You're all involved with FRSA celebrating 100 years.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Criswell:
100 years.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Wow.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And 100 years. I mean that's... And it started right here-

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
That's so cool.

Heidi Ellsworth:
In Daytona.

Joe Byrne:
1922, right here.

Heidi Ellsworth:
1922.

Joe Byrne:
Right here in Daytona Beach, about half mile down the road is the original hotel.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
That's so cool.

Joe Byrne:
And-

David Crowther:
Joe was here.

Joe Byrne:
Not quite, not quite. But it's amazing the building's still there.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And we're going to do a photo shoot with some of the architectures left on the inside-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh, cute.

Joe Byrne:
For historical posts.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
I think it's really good. And if you've been reading the Florida Roof magazine-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Joe Byrne:
Every month we're running an article in there about the past 100 years.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
It's so cool.

Joe Byrne:
And some of the photographs are great.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And listening to all the problems that they had back in the 20s and the 30s and 40s, they're the same problems we're having today.

Matt Criswell:
Same problems we have.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah. It's the same thing. It's cyclical, like you said.

Matt Criswell:
Yep. Cyclical.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It just cycles through.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It really does. Well, I would love to have you all share a little bit, just your story about not just FRSA, but also the local associations that you're involved on that you guys, I know you're all involved in, but maybe just share some stories of your involvement with FRSA and what it's meant to your business and celebrating this 100 years. And Matt, I'm going to start with you.

Matt Criswell:
Good. Not good that you're starting [inaudible 00:43:08].

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Of course.

Matt Criswell:
This is a good topic to talk about. Before I get into the associations because I think it's a great thing, I try to educate every customer, even if they don't use me. If I lose a bid, call me back, let me know what it was.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Number one, I want the feedback from them so I can maybe gain an edge on the competition, but two, that doesn't sound right. That's why it's cheaper. I just want to let them know. I wouldn't do it and I'm a building owner of commercial properties. My homeowner have multiple homes. I can give you both perspectives of what I would do if it was my roof. Associations, absolutely imperative to get involved with either your local affiliate or with FRSA. It's $1,000 a year, give or take, I think 775 to maybe 2,500, depending on the size of your company. Spend it. It's worth it. If you don't know, I think Bridget, you said somebody doesn't, they said they don't know.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
If you don't know what it is, just pick up the phone, call Lisa Pait.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
She'll chew year off for a half hour.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Sure.

Matt Criswell:
If you want to talk to Mike Silver, he'll chew your year off for three hours. They'll tell you exactly why to get involved with it. It's more than just dues and meeting a couple times a year.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Criswell:
There's a lot of stuff behind the scenes that they don't know about, there's so many different types of codes, updates, there's so many different publications and paperwork and tools, resources, all of that kind of stuff within FRSA. If at least you don't do your local, do FRSA.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
So important.

Matt Criswell:
And it goes on to RNCA too.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Of course.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Once you get involved with one, I think you should get involved with most of them.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It's where all the advocacy comes from.

Matt Criswell:
That's it.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I mean right here, this is what it's all about. Joe.

Joe Byrne:
Well, that investment Matt was talking about, it's minimal. What you get out of it, or I'll say what I get out of it, since I've been involved with the FRSA since the 80s, I've gotten a lot of knowledge from my peers.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
I love getting the conventions and the code committee meetings or our committee meetings. I meet people, we, we talk, we discuss what are you do in your area, what are you doing in your area?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
I gained a lot of knowledge over the years. I mean, it was worth the price of admission.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
In fact, I should probably be paying that.

Matt Criswell:
You're not fighting with the next contractor.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
You're sitting with them and having structural conversations. And Joe, you've been in for a long time. How many friends do you have in this association?

Joe Byrne:
Oh countless.

Matt Criswell:
You wouldn't have gotten them if you didn't spend $1,000 or whatever it is, right?

Joe Byrne:
But the other thing about that, Matt, is there's not a person in the state of Florida that is a member that I can't pick up the phone and call them if I have a question-

Matt Criswell:
There you go.

Joe Byrne:
Or if I need help.

Matt Criswell:
There you go.

Joe Byrne:
I'll give you a good example. Probably about 15, 18 years ago, some people broke into my warehouse and stole my equipment.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
And it was my local fellow roofers that actually-

Heidi Ellsworth:
No.

Joe Byrne:
Well this is back before Facebook and all that stuff, right?

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
But the word went out that Joe was in need. And my fellow roofers, my competitors, they called me up and they said, hey, don't you have a job going, you need a couple heat welders? Yeah, I do.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Wow.

Joe Byrne:
I'll give them to you. I said, I'll rent them from you. No, no, no, no. And that's what's great about it.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
It's the roofing community. Now I'm talking about the legitimate guys.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right, of course.

Joe Byrne:
We're all professionals, okay.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
True.

Joe Byrne:
And that's what happens. They come to your aid.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
And like I said, that's-

Matt Criswell:
Would've been better if they called you and said, we found your stuff.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right. That's a [inaudible 00:46:49].

Matt Criswell:
They're trying to sell it to me right now.

Joe Byrne:
I hit all the pawn shops there.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah. Go find it. Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
But the money is really nothing. It's the camaraderie, meeting the people, talking to them.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
That's really great.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It's really...

Joe Byrne:
And we have a bunch, my theme this year was celebrating 100 years of the FRSA and the American roofer.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
And I think we have the best roofers in the country.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh, for sure.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.

Joe Byrne:
I mean, American roofers. I mean, they're the best. We just need to get more educated in the industry. I'm old, I'm on my way out and somebody needs to replace me.

Matt Criswell:
A lot of knowledge.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
But trying to get the people in there to do that.

Matt Criswell:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Byrne:
And that's one good thing about the local and the state association.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
Brings it all together.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Bridget.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
I have a different perspective, all along the same lines, but my entire family is in roofing. My dad is one of six brothers, six boys. There are six roofing companies, one metal manufacturing company within my dad and my uncles in my family. I grew up within the industry with cousins, with competition always. And so it's just interesting when I talk to other roofers and you need to join the FRSA and I'm trying to help them. And they don't understand that healthy competition.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And they don't understand that I'm trying to help you because helping you helps me. And if we're all at the same level, then we're all leveling up together.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And having grown up that way, doesn't dawn on you that people don't just lift each other up, because it's just my family.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And we always lift each other up. And the competition, McDonald's is always right next to Burger King.

Matt Criswell:
Yep.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Hello. And so having FRSA and having the relationships and you brought up people being too proud, people being a little more humble, treating each other with a little bit more grace and really being a community and realizing that if I lose a job to you, it's because there was something that spoke to them with you and they're more comfortable with you.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
By all means, go with him.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
100%, it's apples to apples. You like his apples, go for it.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
If it's apples to oranges, there's the problem.

Joe Byrne:
You have a problem.

Matt Criswell:
Let's sort it out, right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right. And so having FRSA and growing up within the industry and bringing more kids into the industry, even if I was never going to be a roofer y'all, ever, I was going to teach and save the world one child at a time. I had dreams. And I taught for a few years. And when I started to have children, I realized, oh, wait, I can't actually see my own children when I'm taking care of others. And I had always had my foot in the door with roofing, but realizing what an opportunity is for mothers to be in the roofing industry. I can be done at 2:15 because it's too hot-

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And be in car line. I can take that day off. It's raining, sweet. I'm going to go do PTA stuff. I can't be out on the roof, score. Some people go to the bar, some of us go to PTA. It is what it is, but it's that... It's, yeah.

Joe Byrne:
That's more trying these days anyhow, isn't it?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right. Exactly. And it's that community and being a member of a community. You pay to join, but you can make it what you want it to be.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
You can come to the once a year thing and not see the value in it and that's kind of your problem.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
If you don't sit down with a bunch of people and just start talking to them like we are, if you don't sit down and make these relationships, you are a ship alone in that really bad ocean. I want as many ships around me as possible to help me out because like you said, when I lose all my tools, roofers have the biggest hearts. And I always say that roofers have the biggest hearts, very deep pockets too. For charitable reasons, it's always good.

Matt Criswell:
Correct.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
But roofers love people unconditionally and forever. And so once you get them on your side, they're yours forever. And so I think that's so important for people to really realize that this is not just some random convention. Yeah, they've got great swag.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
But it's a place to really build your framily, your friends that you make family.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And really build that community because-

Matt Criswell:
Well said.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah. Thank you.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Wow. And you said something earlier, you said that you used to come to the kids' events, right-

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
When you were a kid and now I know when you and I are talking, you're like, okay, tell me the day because I want to make sure our kids get into the kids events, right.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right. They're bringing a semi truck with video games for the kids tonight, which is unbelievable.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I love it.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And as a kid growing up, that was during hot mopping days. And they used to give away-

Joe Byrne:
They're still here.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
I know, but still they used to give away these little mops-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
As a kid and they're the best swag to get.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
And I mean, even still, I know it's John's Manville, but as a kid, I called it John Mansville. And there's a couple things that as a kid, I would always say and I was never corrected. I was eight.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Even as an adult, I say things and I'm like, oh, so unprofessional. That's not the way to say those words. But having your kids here because even if they don't want to be a roofer, they learn things and they probably will eventually get into the industry one way or another, if not for their own homes.

Joe Byrne:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Both of my kids said they were never going to have anything to do with roofing and now they both worked with Grufer's Coffee Shop.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Yeah.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yay.

Heidi Ellsworth:
There we go. Okay. David, tell us your story. What?

David Crowther:
Well, I got a unique story.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Okay.

David Crowther:
Unfortunately, I grew up in a family business that didn't put a whole lot of value in roofing associations and they just didn't, it's just the way they were. And so when I broke off 15 years ago or so, I got involved in the local roofing contractors association.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
I remember going to my first meeting and it was interesting because the very first meeting, it was a lunch meeting and I showed up and I was with another guy and we sat down kind of listen, it's my first meeting and I'm wondering what to expect. And they were talking about shutting it down-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Oh wow.

David Crowther:
Because they couldn't get participation.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh.

Joe Byrne:
Oh.

David Crowther:
And they all talked about, well, it was because of the internet. Nobody wants to come to meetings anymore because of the internet. And if you want to know something, you can just Google it really quick, right. It was interesting. I was like, so my first meeting, we're talking about shutting things down. I kind of raised my hand, I said, well, what if somebody who was still interested, right?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right. Wait.

David Crowther:
Needless to say I end up at the president the next year.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Of course.

David Crowther:
And so I ended up being president for, I don't know, three or four years. And I'm still involved at the local level, but interesting enough, learning or coming from an atmosphere of being taught not to go or there's not much value there, don't waste your time, don't waste your money. To going to it, to running it, participating all the way up at the local level to the state level. And then obviously going with Ms. Hall, Tammy Hall-

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Up at the national level was absolutely phenomenal.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
And I just don't think some people understand how big this industry is and how strong we can actually become and how we can actually make a difference.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yes.

David Crowther:
And again, I think that's what it's all about is making a difference because we all need roofs. We all need them every 20 years.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Joe Byrne:
That's right.

David Crowther:
And so-

Matt Criswell:
Well, if we weren't in the roofing market, we'd all be swimming pool builders, right?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Right, right.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Way better.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Well, roofs as far as the eye can see, my dad would always say that when they're like, you have all this competition. He's like, there are roofs as far... It's like dentists, everyone has teeth.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
You can have five dentists on one corner and they're all busy.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Yeah.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
It works.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Everybody has a roof.

Matt Criswell:
Right.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Everyone needs one. I have to tell you, you guys just made my heart sing because my first regional show was in 1994 and it was FRSA. And I remember coming here and being brought in by Morris Swoop and his family.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Oh yes. The Swoops, of course.

Heidi Ellsworth:
And they just, you should move from Oregon to be in Florida and all those kind of things. And today I feel the exactly same way almost 30 years later.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heidi Ellsworth:
This is a spectacular state and amazing association. Thank you. Thank you all for being here today.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Thank you for having us.

Joe Byrne:
No problem.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
What an honor.

Heidi Ellsworth:
I think I have kind of the chills. I'm so excited about this.

Matt Criswell:
It's the air conditioner that's down.

Heidi Ellsworth:
It is.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
It's lovely.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Thank you. Thank you. And we will do this again next year, right?

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yes.

Joe Byrne:
Absolutely.

Heidi Ellsworth:
[Inaudible 00:54:56] podcast, very fun probably or maybe at roofing day.

Matt Criswell:
Yeah.

David Crowther:
Count me in.

Heidi Ellsworth:
Something, okay.

Bridget Jenkins Wilson:
Yes.

Heidi Ellsworth:
We're good. And thank you all for being here on this live Coffee Conversations. If you didn't get so much out of this one, you never will because this group, the conversation we had today, I'm just wowed. I am wowed, and you can find all of this as always with all of our coffee shop shows on River's Coffee Shop under the RLW Initiative. You can also find this on the podcast channel. Go to your favorite podcast channel, subscribe, get your notifications and don't miss a single one. We're going to be coming back with more interviews, but we're done with Coffee Conversations. Have a great day.



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