some of my desert home pics test

Egg or anyone else, I was curious about chemical preservatives . Are the chemicals used in battens corrosive? Does this affect the type of wire or nails you use? Copper and or stainless steel?

B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

I believe underlayments in general became a catch-all...magic bullet, (so-to-speak), for inferior design & construction methods/workmanship.

I'm reflecting now on a complete tract of homes in Calif. that were built probably in the late 60's?....Tile over spaced sheathing...We were party to re-roofing many of them ourselves...The standard practice was to get rid of that darned ol' tile; Sheet over the spaced sheathing and put comp on it....Boy, that was a real upgrade!(NOT!).

The problem was; Although the tile was a viable product, the specifyer(s) and installers failed to complete the system as intended...They thought they could just throw tile on spaced sheathing w/o like, (Eruo) details...Only due to the the temperate climate, the roofs performed, as well as they did.

Today, in "snow country"...Ice & Water Shield is the standared practice...Stick that stuff everywhere....Put two layers on! That'll fix'er...So it goes....

Unless things have changed, we, (US), are probably the only ones that typically use plywd & depend so much on the underlayment, rather than effective tile placing.

Most other places, (UK/Eruope, "down-under", etc....), The roofer would generally take the roof from the rafter stack stage...Roofer installs horizontal 1x, (battens as we refer to them),at the appropriate spacing to accomdate the tile exposure. Also, cuts rakes/eaves so as to "fit" trim tiles....Sometimes tiles themselves are built with opening for vent pipes, elliminationg sheet metal pipe jacks....Field tiles with built-in snow stops as well.

I did run across a method used in UK of draping "sarking"(sp?) over rafters, prior to 1x battens.

The previous home we built,(1999); Elev. 7400, lots of snow...multi-day sub-zero conditions....Typically get at least one 36" storm a yr...sometimes 3 or more....Flat concrete tile...3/12 to 12/12 pitches....No ice & water...I only put one 30# on because the local bldg. dept. had a fit that I wasn't going to use any underlayment.

I built an out buiding a couple of years later....flat conc. tile....1x6 at 13.25" spacing, right over the rafters.....No solid sheathing...No underlayment what-so-ever....Never a problem.

That's not to say underlayment is never needed...That's just what happens when a project is truly thought-out/designed, prior to construction. These days an architect draws a house.....a GC builds it and band-aides it up to withstand the elements, (i.e., ice & water sheild and the like).

I'll stop there....Didn't want to get too carried away.... :cheer:

eggs attachment method is a traditional tried and true method. Requires a great degree of labor and craftsman technique that only a very few and rare individual posses. A relative, design engineer contractor in Italy has sent me a DVD of a middle ages ( 1400- 1500) church remodel update. Copper zinc or iron nails and mortar with horse hair was the application method. Pan tiles were not the most water resistant. There are no roof boards only battens. Interesting. B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

Are they still hot-mopping BUR under steep tile roofs in Florida? I thought that was the standard, (years ago, anyway)...They'd use cotton mops, so as to just toss when they were finished. Wouldn't like my guys on a 6 or 7/12 doing hot! Steepest BUR every did was a 4/12 under a cast-in-place concrete roof...Coincidently, that was for a guy from Florida, who just had to have that particular roof. He had a crew come out to Calif. from Florida w/forms & such to install concrete roof.

I hear ya Wy....Sometimes you've just got to "Do as the Romans..." Same here; They don't know what it is and refuse to use "Z-bar"...It's typically burried...Only when we're involved at the design stage or working with a not-so-ignorant GC, are appropriate counter flashing details utilized.

Rocky; Your correct on the Florida polyurethane attachment....Copper isn't sht mtl?....I was mostly eluding to the underlayment, as is the typical mindset of us Yanks...Underlayment dependent, rather than correct primary roof material installment,(the tile, slate, what-have-you)....I've specified, designed, installed all types of tile roofs for the past 28+ years. Don't claim to know it all. The "Yank" referrence came from a comment I received from a contractor in the UK, some 15+ yrs ago, while researching tile installation & snow retention in Europe. He had made the comment how us "Yanks" cheapen everything up and then wonder why it fails....Install the tile as intended..after all, That's where it came from! It's worked for cenruries over there.

Rockydog, I am with Tom on the concept of a solid base under the rock with no possibility of flushing underneath, but If I understand correctly, one would still be able to get back underneath the rock with some patience (once the tiles were separated from the membrane) should that need ever come to pass, for whatever reason. Interesting discussion.

I assume if one had to crawl across a finished section anchored by foam, the tiles would hardly move around at all. Is that right?

By the way, that pile of parts wasn't scuppers. They go in places like this:

(The Grace I&W was not my deal. I only use Grace Ultra with tile when there is a need for it. I choose my battles and this spot wasn't worth a fight.

Anyone who has experienced the bad adhesion of a mortar set tile roof will understand why Poly foam adhesive is superior. It has not proven adhesion for longevity in real time.Over 20yrs Much to hope for. It is the application on the coastal sides of Florida. It is a promising product. B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day

Euro Specs? TomB, do the photos and my description of installation not show an installation worthy of standing the test of time. No, I probably didn't explain every detail of my work but I didn't think you roofer's needed that. Of course I wasnt the Architect, and not that it matters if he was yankee or of the south. Didn't much matter to me at all. The foam patty idea I thought was birthed in Dade County, Florida. The HO, who spared no expense in building this home and the Mfg'er who gave a lifetime warranty including the tile, felt that that was the best system for this project. Teach me, what was ill-conceived? There is NO sheet meatal on this project. and as far as counter flashing, the HO and I went thru extensive time, patience and material to remove the need and use of counterflash. This was not your normal faux rock facade applied to the walls, rather an honest to goodness real rock, minimum 6" thick and he wanted a minimal amount of metal showing on the home. The masons had to cut a groove on the back side of the rock to slid on to a ledger plate. You need counterflashing to aide someone who has to come back in 5 years and repair the roof or expansion and both of those notions were covered prior to installation

It's a shame the owner didn't acquire some european installation specifications along with that Italian tile....As to the underlayment/attachment; Sounds like they went to tremendous unecessary expense, to satisfy a typical "yankee" architect/specifyer's, ill-conceived notions regarding tile roofing....Like the copper....Masonry should have a curb base w/counter-flashing though...Not a fan of burying sheet metal w/masonry.

I shocked lots of people after getting the Go ahead from Elk when I Dutch-Lapped my roof and added randoms here and there. Whenever a nail hit between the planks, I face nailed the shingles and covered with a dab of BJ Neoprene and a random.

My dimensional roof looks dimensional instead of smooth. Blasphamy to some! :laugh:

Thanks Tinner,You can do it with shingle and wood shakes/shingle as well. Great detail work, Egg

We seem to do a lot of serpertine patterns with staggering of rolls and then adding stacks and boosters

Looks good Egg. I've done randoms with shingles and slate, but shinglers really yell and say it can't be done! Phew on them! :laugh: Your's look good too, Rocky! :)

You're right about that. Last time I checked they had an ES number. Guess I better pay another visit. The vents do have to be fooled with quite a bit. I often find I need to rivet extra tabs to get them to seat properly. I cover the vents with something else until we lay up the field around them. I love the concept though. When you step away from the building it's as if they're not even there.

Here's my roof to wall head flashing: