All USA Homeowners are Pro Choice!

So, the carpenters union is at it again in MN with their ICEC nonsense which is an attempt to further strengthen previous legislation that turns sub-contractors into employees of independent contractors. It is obvious whose behind the ICEC legislation because the legislators (bill authors are also carpenters union reps) didn't go after independent contractor landscapers, real estate agents, off duty cops, and so many other "independent contractors." Trust me when I say that if ICEC like legislation hasn't come to your state yet, it will if the carpeners unions in your state have enough pull. They'll go after the rest of the other industry independent contractors later.

Additionally, and this concerns any contractor who does insurance repair work, pays P&C insurance premiums and has customers who do the same - the fight against the rubber stamp template "no negotiating" legislation that is currently being proposed in many states and has come to Minnesota (as expected) recently.

Will this garbage bill pass in MN? At this point, could go either way. The MN Legislature is getting an unexpected and aggressive blowback from MN contractors as well as homeowners. At a recent House committee hearing, committee members who thought there would be little to no awareness or objection to their scheme got a surprise when a large group of local contractors showed up to express their opposition to the bill that only serves to help the P&C ins industry continue to under pay their property damage claims. Customers of those same and other contractors have offered to appear at the next committee hearing (if any) to make it clear to the committee why the legislation is anything but consumer protection and why it should be tossed.

At a meeting last week with the Minnesota Association of Exterior Specialists, PA firms, and supported by the Builders Association of Minnesota, it was agreed that the above and other anti-business and anti-free enterprise/free market nonsense progresses only because most independent contractors nationwide don't pay attention and if they do find out about legislation that will negatively affect them, they sit on their hands and do nothing. Usually, because they simply don't know what else to do.

A detailed expose on the "no negotiating" legislation in MN (same as the other states now considering it or who have passed it) and instruction on how to get the word out across the country regarding both issues so as to warn those who will be negatively affected is included.

Here's what you can and should do: go to both websites through the links below and read and learn about what the politicians and their sycophants are up to that will negatively affect your business. Unlike OSHA and EPA, these issues are state issues which means each of us can have a bigger affect in defeating such legislation.

Then, take action by letting fellow contractors know by forwarding the links and talking directly to them, telling your customers as much as possible and contacting your state legislators and Governors directly.

READ FIRST: www.iccoa.com/smakers5.htm (ICEC) and www.iccoa.com/bulletin.htm ("no negotiating). Use the links to get the information out as soon as possible and fight back while you still can.

Thank you Amy

Larry B- You keep talking about the 'No Negotiating' language as onerous. I am asking you to clarify and specifically point out, in this case in Colorado's SB12-038 which you are opposing - where that language is in the bill. I noted in another post on this forum that there was an amendment added to this bill which specifically states a contractor can advocate on behalf of the homeowner in negotiations with the insurance company. I'd like you to keep the facts accurate for the readers here.

Rockydog Said: well Ill be, Larry. You still live. I thought you lobbied,oops, owned up to your legislation in MN and decided you didnt need to talk to us anymore. Its sounds like over the past 60 years that you have been on every side of the fence and for awhile I thought maybe you were under it. Glad to hear youre still kicking, wouldnt wish that on anyone no matter what side of the fence. Unions arent very strong down here and the carpenters would certainly have a hard time pushing the roofers around. We have one of the strongest roofing associations in the nation that push for good roofing practices. We work well with the other trades though and we,ve gained their respect. But we dont allow bad carpentry to dictate on how we are going to put on a roof. We dont allow a plumber or hvac man to put a pipe dead center of a valley or not supply their flashings, or an electrician run his conduit across the deck or our roof improperly. And some of us are smart enough that if we are going to do insurance work, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE MONEY doing it. That BS about non-negotiating wouldnt pass just like it didnt in MN. You had some good points there.

A whole bunch of us were focused on defeating the MN version of "no negotiating" bill over the past several weeks which explains why I hadn't replied.

"We are going to make money doing it" You may but the majority of contractors across the country still leave many millions of dollars on the table every year as a result of not being trained on how the process really works. CO is attempting to run "No Negotiating" through their legislature as we speak so we're trying to get contractors in that state to take some action to defeat this template bill there as well.

Just a guy selling his book to contractors across the country...

well I'll be, Larry. You still live. I thought you lobbied,oops, owned up to your legislation in MN and decided you didn't need to talk to us anymore. It's sounds like over the past 60 years that you have been on every side of the fence and for awhile I thought maybe you were under it. Glad to hear you're still kicking, wouldn't wish that on anyone no matter what side of the fence. Unions aren't very strong down here and the carpenters would certainly have a hard time pushing the roofers around. We have one of the strongest roofing associations in the nation that push for good roofing practices. We work well with the other trades though and we,ve gained their respect. But we dont allow bad carpentry to dictate on how we are going to put on a roof. We don't allow a plumber or hvac man to put a pipe dead center of a valley or not supply their flashings, or an electrician run his conduit across the deck or our roof improperly. And some of us are smart enough that if we are going to do insurance work, WE ARE GOING TO MAKE MONEY doing it. That BS about non-negotiating wouldn't pass just like it didnt in MN. You had some good points there.

Vickie the Boss Said: Hey Larry did you used to be associated with Cert-a-roof?

Never heard of them until you mentioned the name.

I was in the construction business as a sub roofing, siding, framing, window, gutter, trim, insulation, etc. installer, GC, sales rep, consultant, insurance claims work, marketing, etc for 40+ years + 20 addl years in the insurance business.

Hey Larry did you used to be associated with Cert-a-roof?

twill59 Said: Question Larry: (I have been to roofing.com!) After getting the HO to sign a contingency agreement and after waiting 3 days...then what? What is the next step?

Does the contractor contact Ins. Co. making a claim on someones behalf?

Start moving on the claim as soon as contingency signed...ask questions. Has the HO filed a claim, received a loss report, status?, estimates?. If HO hasn't filed a claim, have them do so. If they have, has an adjuster inspection been scheduled? If not, have HO follow "Claim Form Instructions" (from The Playbook). This will make sure you know when the inspection will be conducted so you can be there. Already been inspected? HO received loss report yet? all of this info + all a contractor needs to successfully process ins covered repair work is included in 3RS Profit MAX/The Playbook.

Rockydog Said: Alright. It looks like Larry is a lobbist for the Independent Contractors of America. Below is a copy of a proposal taken off of his URL he had posted. It took a lot of BS reading to finally get to his crux. His arguement it seems , is with the unions, when it really should be with the insurance companies. Unless this was reworded at press time,or when the ICCoA posted, I, too, dont agree with the proposal, but it has nothing to do with the unions. Iam the advocate for the homeowner, and Ill happily battle the ins.cos advocate(the adjuster). Actually I would help battle the State against such a proposal, but its not the unions fault, even if they are strong at the state level.

Negotiation with insurance provider. A residential contractor shall not represent or negotiate, or offer or advertise to represent or negotiate, on behalf of an owner or possessor of residential real estate on an insurance claim in connection with the repair or replacement of roof systems, or the performance of any other exterior repair, replacement, construction, or reconstruction work. Nothing in this section prohibits a residential contractor from discussing with an insurer the specific terms of a written contract executed between the residential contractor and a policyholder of the insurer once the claim has been accepted by the insurer.

Gees, you wouldnt believe the reading it took to find this paragraph. save your time unless you like that kind of reading.

Bio: Started over forty years ago first, at age 15, doing takeoffs from commercial construction plans then framing as an ee, then started roofing and siding and related sub-contracting in 1971 (another old school guy). Same year did first ins claim storm damage work. Then as now, ins companies attempted to screw their insureds by dratically underpaying their claims. Always worked as a sub because that's they way us independent types up here liked it and always allowed us to keep control of our destiny. Later, twenty addl years of in depth ins industry experience.

3RSystems, LLC - Owner. ICCOA, not a lobbyist for but the owner of.

Two different but important topics.

Topic 1 IRS law says to define "independent contractor" liberaly in favor of the tax payer. Carpenters union reps/legislators in MN wanted to force "non-compliant" workers (other contractors and subcontractors who worked with GC's into complying with their program where all work is priced at artifically high pricing through PLA agreements generally on tax payer funded commercial work. This would mean that if contractor A hired contractor B to do their specialty portion of a job, contractor B (sub of A) would automatically be deemed not a legal sub but rather, an employee of the GC when, in the real world, that is not the case. Politics as usual. The same carpenters reps tried to pull this one over independent truckers but failed.

Topic 2 As anyone who has been around for decades and has been paying attention knows, P&C insurance companies have been underpaying their claims by many billions of dollars every year. They don't like pro contractors who know how the process works to be involved in the process negotiating with the ins co's to get them to fully pay their claims. The "no negoatiating" legislation was an attempt to get them out of the way. In other words, for you as a homeowner, if you did not know what it costs for repairs paid by insurance, you'd be left to trust (and pay a 10% to 15% fee to) a public adjuster or trust that your P&C ins co will pay you everything they owe you and that never works to the benefit of the 90,000,000 approximate premium payers across the country.

The no negotiating issue and the carpenters union/ICEC issue are two entirely different issues. Sorry if anyone was confused.

GKRFG Said: There appears to be 3 different business models in the residential roofing trade these days. The old fashioned model: Be established in a service area and try to sell work to owners that are in need of their services. Have a crew that are employees and fight to stay alive. (Only dinosauers use this method B) ) The middleman contractor: Be established in a service area and try to sell work to owners that are in need of their services. Have a crew that are subcontractors and avoid all of the taxes and insurance that are associated with a legal business. (This is probably the majority of companies) or was until the new model came on the scene 10 years ago or so....... The insurance leech: Subscribe to a hail alert service, set up a storefront office and send out a batch of canvassers/order takers to suck up as much business as possible, sub it out for cheap, take the insurance money and run. (Come on I cant believe everybody doesnt do it this way! ;) )

Am I missing anything?

Yes!

1 and 2 are both established ways of doing business that have been going on for decades. I started in 1970 (builder ee) then 1971 as a siding/roofing/gutter/trim sub-contractor. Either way was the norm back then and both worked well. Back then, subs, due to the nature of how things worked, wanted nothing to do with being an ee. We could get top dollar for our work back then by not being "controlled" by any particular contractor. Contractors weren't using subs as a way to avoid taxes, insurance, etc. That's just the way it was.

as to 3...pretty blanket statement! There are just as many "leeches" out there who have nothing to do with insurance work who put themselves out of business, leave customers holding the "bag" with unfinished or lousy work, take the money and run and all the rest mentioned. The guy usually implying that all contractors who do ins work are leeches is doing so because he can't figure out how the process actually (when done by a pro contractor) works and why it should be the best approach for the insured with damage. There are those who handle their business that way, there's also crooker bankers, lawyers, sales people, insurance adjusters and on and on. Regarding insurance work, the point you are really missing is that insurance companies screw their insureds out of many millions of dollars worth of legitimate claim settlements every year and I teach contractors how to get that money for their HO customers and do their contracting business the right and legal way. That way, the real "leeches" that come into town after a storm can't take the business away from that locals. At least the local contractors who make the investment in themselves to learn the process.

Old School Said: What Rocky said!

Larry, what do you do for a living? Are you an insurance adjuster, a lobbyist, or a roofer?

Old School,

See www.burcos.com/about.htm - that's what I do. Old School style!

Rockydog Said: Larry, I am dumb as a roofer comes. Sometimes its difficult to understand and digest everything you wrote and I read it 4 or 5 times. Maybe there is an easier way to explain it for us knuckleheads. The way I see it, every damn union empolyee can go get his license, pay his workers comp, liability, pay his taxes and become a sub contractor, I dont care. Its the ones that dont pay that we need to keep an eye on. We have to do that at the kitchen table and inform and educate the HO on all the ills that come with hiring the guy that doesnt pay his dues. Excuse the pun. That being said we will always have those kind of subs and those kind of HOs that want to save(cheat) the buck out of you. I do agree big brother is to big and the last thing we need is more legislation. Ps... that HOS is for home owners, not our ladies friends of the night. :laugh:

And we will always have those contractors who will do the same. There is already more than enough legislation (laws) in place to deal with contractors and sub-sonctractors who don't want to do the right thing. Solution, if they don't eventually put themselves out of business as a result of their questionable, dishonest practices, make the penalty for not doing the right thing so severe that they will either decided to correct their errors or be put out of business - as they should be thereby leaving the work to the real pros.

No state licensing in Co.....Only individual municipalities....A "license" is required in most major metro cities and counties...Some have tests, some don't...they're all just formnalities...It's basically a free--for-all for contractors. Denver used to have somewhat of a suedo-licensing proceedure. However, I think it's way lax from prior yrs...I think all one needs is GL ins. & your good-to-go. Colo. Springs had a open-book test, I believe.....I've held a lic. in most all municipalities in Co. at one time or another....They're all a joke.....It's morE of a pain in the aRSE, THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

TomB. Denver is tempting especially with summer coming. I might be looking for some good people up there. I'll start looking at the licensing.

Arizona licensing. Residential separate license from commercial, or you can qualify for a dual. Four years verifiable exp. No comp for owners, comp for employees only. $2500 bond refundable after 2 years. Must renew every 2years. Initial trade test and business test Must be lic. bonded and insured. Sales taxes lic in each city you work in plus county and state. Phoenix requires permits and lead, asbestos testing on every commericial job. cold climate areas require dry-in inspections. GKRFG, I have family in Plainview or plainville must be near you. we'll get together when I come up there.

Awesome!..Is it enforced?

Do all local municipalities enforce? I know in Ca., all local, (city/county), verify upon permit application.

Ca. is very similar...except for the WC ins. rqrmnts. I was abreviating, For some reason, only roofers were rqrd to have WC....(may have changed by now).

Florida CCC Roofing contractors......... Minimum amounts required for General Liability insurance for Roofing contractors are $100,000 for bodily injury and $25,000 for property damage. All contractors are required to carry Worker’s Compensation Insurance. All contractors must be at least 18 years of age and be of good moral character. Beginning November 1, 2007, all applicants for initial licensure or changed of status will be required to have a criminal background check performed by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and Federal Bureau of Investigation. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ENSURING THAT YOUR FINGERPRINTS HAVE BEEN SCANNED BY THE DEPARTMENT’S VENDOR, PROMISSOR/PEARSON VUE, PRIOR TO SUBMITTING YOUR APPLICATION. Applicants must document a net worth of $10,000 and submit a financial statement documented by a CPA. Applicants must show they have good credit by submitting a credit report less than 3 months old. Experience Required:

4 years of experience in the trade with at least 1 year having been supervisory work OR

A 4 year construction-related degree from an accredited college and 1 year proven experience applicable to the category for which you are applying OR

1 year as a foreman and not less than 3 years of credits from any accredited college level courses OR

1 year as a workman, 1 year proven experience as a foreman, and 2 years of credits from any accredited college level courses OR

2 years of experience as a workman, 1 year of experience as a foreman, and 1 year of credits from any accredited college level courses OR Have an active Certified Florida contactor’s license (This option only applies to Certified Building, Residential, Air Conditioning, and Swimming Pool contractors as provided in Section 489.111 (2)(c)4-6, Florida Statutes) . B) :) :) B) Deep Down In Florida Where The Sun Shines Damn Near Every Day